of course you are right.. We should have 2 armies one female the other male, we should have 2 airforces for each gender. And when we go to war we should make sure the the other side has there forces gender separated. lets not leave out law enforcement, or the FBI or anyplace else.

Ok, let's be honest here. The only reason why people have a problem with co-ed wrestling is because of the close physical contact. PERIOD. It has nothing to him being stronger than her or worried that he will hurt her, or about "normal" segregation of the sexes in sports. It's puritanical Victorian-era bull@!$%# to think that a guy and a girl can't wrestle as mature athletes without it being "sexual" or uncomfortable. What if he had said the same thing about a gay guy? Would you also applaud him for not getting aggressive with an effeminate male?

Couldn't agree more benjamin... no more women's sports teams, only one team. not good enough to make the school team... not going to create a separate "girls" only team for you.

OhMy9999 @1.2: "It's puritanical Victorian-era bull@!$%# to think that a guy and a girl can't wrestle as mature athletes without it being "sexual" or uncomfortable."

Wrong, and you damn well know it. The first time this young man went to make an aggressive move and accidentally grabbed a handfull of her right boob, his first reaction would be to withdraw and apologize -and he can't legitimately wrestle in such a manner.

It may be arcane or arachonistic to you, but some of us still abide by some measure of modesty and mutual respect -and it is second-nature to us. If I bump into someone, my first response is to excuse myself. If it is an inappropriate bump to a woman, my apology is more emphatic because I am embarassed. It is not a demanded or expected apology, it is offered willingly to excuse my own actions.

It is a complex thinking and emotional situation that simpletons and the self-absorbed "gimme gimmes" probably don't grasp because "manners" and "respect" are nothing but lip service.

As far as your "gay man" remark, you show that you truly have no clue as to what you're saying. The issue is not "sexual," and a gay guy isn't in the ring trying for crotch grabs. And I seriously doubt an effiminate male would have made it to a tournament -that effiminate behavior is due to a differing level of hormones, chemicals, and brain development, which, in turn, effects physical development and interests.

And before you even try -I'm an old-school guy that carries a gun to tree-hugging, gay-equality, and abortion-rights support rallies, so spare us the usual litany of overused clichés. I might also remind you that you set the tone of agreessiveness, so I obliged.

Thanks for telling it like it is.

Hey, Iowa ----- This is a blatant example of PC AT IT'S WORST ! To place a young male in such an uncomfortable position is shameful. Let females wrestle females. This is NOT equality. This "sport" is unfair to both sexes. The wrestling program responsible for this travesty should be admonished and new "rules" clearly spelled out for all. Anyone COULD be injured in such athletic events, but if a girl should really be hurt, BADLY, where should the fingers point? The male inflicting the injury? The parents of the girl for allowing her to participate in co-ed sports? The respective coaches for allowing their wrestlers to partake in such activities? The school program itself? The (those) entities which fostered such "competition"? As I stated earlier; PC run amok. No, one, I repeat, NO ONE, benefits from allowing such co-ed sports. There is no rational for promoting, allowing and participating in, such contests. I invite any and all comments on this particular subject.

I'll start. You're wrong. And it's sick that you and others have essentially said that it's more OK for male (child) athletes to get injured than female (child) athletes.

I am a female in support of equal pay for equal work, but I support this young man 100%! Sometimes this crap goes too far! How is a young man going to protect himself from accusations of molestation or sexual assault if he happens to place his hands on the wrong part of her body (and, maybe even likes what he feels)!

Please, people, be realistic. This is like saying, "go ahead, squeeze my tits but don't get a woody because that would be inappropriate."

Come on, folks, get real. I can tell you that if I had a daughter and she was able to defeat a man in wrestling... I'd be worried.

Just my opinion, folks, and I'm allowed to have it!

Kat: Well-said! It's not always easy for high school boys to control their bodies' response. Wrestling is the ultimate contact sport...it is as intimate as it is violent.

Women in combat...I'm fine with that. A girl on the Little League team...I'm fine with that. Wrestling...my gut response is not so much.

The people that claim girls/women should be allowed to compete on boys teams are usually the ones that would disagree with the converse. They also usually would be the first to complain if there is not proportionate representation of genders (i.s., reverse discrimination).

Contact sports should be separated, non-contact sports can be mixed gender.

Tewlup is right. Many of you callously dismiss how this young man felt about it. He should be admired for holding true to his beliefs. Many of you are making this about her. Frankly, I think girls/young women who feel the need to compete in such close contact, physical sports with men have serious issues. They come off as needing to prove they are so powerful and and superior. No ones takes into consideration that boys/young men are already dealing with the hormonal storms of youth, only to put into the position of competing with females in a sport where virtually every part of the body can be and is touched by various parts of the opponents body. Oddly enough, there are young men who find this uncomfortable for any number of reasons. They get dismissed and chided for being sexists, chauvinists, etc.

It's time we stopped bullying our sons into these situations just to appease some girl who needs to overpower a boy to feel important and have high "self-esteem." As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Herkleman is a poor excuse for a man and an even poorer excuse for a father. The same goes for Mrs. Herkleman in regards to being a woman and a mother. The Northrups, on the other hand deserve high praise for raising such a honorable young man. Our country could certainly use more like him

I almost had to wrestle a girl in HS in NM in the 80's. It was a terrifying prospect. Lose and be laughed off the team, win and catch hell for beating up a girl. Things may be changing, but it's still too soon for gender inclusivity in combat sports in our society. IMHO

Tewlip, how precious, you are already teaching your sons to have a bias against women. How proud you must me to be like the mother of the "Home-schooled" kid in this article, ensuring your suns, like him, will go through life with unrealistic ideas about what women can and can't do. Bravo!

I don't even understand why this is an issue. Obviously, the girl has wrestled before and this is not a venue to jam up boys for sexual harassment if they accidentally touch her boob. Geez. I feel like I landed in the 18th century here. Why are sports separated at all? Someone here commented that there are girls' sports that are inappropriate for boys. Like what? And sports teams should be mixed. If women can make the cut, great. If not, tough. Equal opportunity all the way. People need to stop whining so much. Suck it up. What are you, afraid of cooties?

Obviously pro golf has a problem with men competing in the womens competitions.

I wrestled a girl in High School she clearly knew how to wrestle I barely won on points the only thing I was worried about was erection prevention.

So roping a guy through the crotch for a throw is ok but if he grazed her boob he would be so taken aback he would fold. Wow sounds like a fairly latent reaction.

This is sport people, it is all about competing against the best. This athlete made it into the tourney she deserves respect. My guess is this young man is scared that he will loss to a female and is skipping out to avoid that chance.

If a female athlete goes 20-13 in Iowa High School wrestling she can take care of herself. All of these right wing softies should just settle their pudgy little bodies back on the couch. Go back to your Twinkies and leave the athletes alone.

In our state, there is girl's wrestling as well as boy's wrestling, it's not a mixed bag. I understand the boy's dilemma and believe that he held to his values as best he could. My daughter wrestled in high school and went to state every single year until her last year when she injured her rotator cuff. She also out-wrestled a boy on her team, although the situation where it was a girl v. boy match was uncommon. Wrestling is about strength, moves, speed, flexibility, endurance, and strategy. For girls, it also means that if they're ever in a situation where they're grabbed or attacked, they're not going to be panicked about being touched, they'll fight and have a better chance of escaping than a girl raised in pink tulle and 'traditional' girly activities. I'd rather have a child who's strong, independent, and self-sufficient.

Having said that, to those who are suggesting that there is anything sexual about wrestling competitively in high school or college...so...gays aren't allowed to wrestle, then? I mean, you're going to have to make sure all the male wrestlers are straight, just in case, right? Please, you don't have TIME or ENERGY to think about sex, you're fighting to win...perhaps you should actually go to a wrestling match and get your minds out of the gutter

Fred the Evil,

If I may quote kansaswrestler456 #13 below:

As a high school wrestler, I believe that on the mat there are no boys and girls, only wrestlers.

I agree.

You said:

The first time this young man went to make an aggressive move and accidentally grabbed a handfull of her right boob, his first reaction would be to withdraw and apologize -and he can't legitimately wrestle in such a manner.

I disagree. Girls that choose to wrestle know where they might be grabbed and are fine with it. They don't think, "I'll join wrestling just so I can have an advantage as a girl because guys won't want to grab me and will just let me win." It doesn't work that way.

As far as your "gay man" remark, you show that you truly have no clue as to what you're saying. The issue is not "sexual,"

Ahhh, my dear Fred, but that's what you're making it out to be. I'm mearly pointing out that there is nothing sexual about wrestling. If there were, the young man would have had not only issues with wrestling girls, but with gay guys as well (which I'm sure he has no qualms about).

There is nothing wrong with guys wrestling girls. And those who think so have their puritan heads shoved so far up their derriere that they can't think straight.

Just a question or two:

The article says the boy is home-schooled. What is he doing on the non-home-school wrestling team?

The young ladies had records that clearly indicate they have competed in excess of 30 matches each. Should we assume that the boys who wrestled the girls previously were degenerates, were immoral lads, were looking to cop a feel?

This is about wrestling. You grab where you must grab. There are rules, and the opponents know the rules.

ah, and another point...a boob isn't a good handhold...just sayin'

It's far better to get a joint in a lock, and leverage that. If a boob were touched, or genitals, it'd be in passing because 1. it's an illegal hold and 2. there's no way to get any kind of a grip on it to hold a wrestler in place. The goal is to have both of your opponents' shoulders pressed against the mat...given that, you are going to lose your match if you think grabbing a boob is going to do you any good...besides which, they're tightly strapped down...

It's common to allow homeschoolers to participate in public school sports and extra curricular activities. Originally, lack of these sources of peer contact were an arguing point against homeschooling. PS they pay their own way. so don't start bitchin 'bout tax money.

OhMy9999999 wrote "The only reason why people have a problem with co-ed wrestling is because of the close physical contact. "

No. The primary problem with co-ed competitive sports is that men are socially-prohibited from treating women as they do men. For fun or practice, I see no problem.

The boy wrestler should not be placed on the battle grounds of sex politics. What were the sexually-discriminatory rules that were created for these girls to even allow them to compete? Just show up for a State competition without any other lower level matches with boys?

Well, we were starting to have some intelligent debate about this subject, but then Dyingaintmuch... had to go and call someone a liberal, as if that's a bad name, because she disagreed. Well, I'm a liberal, my sons fought in the wars, one is disabled, and, as I said in my post above, I support this young man, 100%! I get sick of people like him --- they can't talk about anything without resorting to name-calling and politics!

OhMy9999 @1.20: "I disagree. Girls that choose to wrestle know where they might be grabbed and are fine with it."

You obviously have no clue what I said, and chose to chant some irrelevant mantra. I never said anything about HER reaction. In fact, I would be hard pressed to care less.

The young man has a problem getting physical with a young lady. My example was HIS reflex if he grabbed a handful of her breast.

From your perspective, as an analogy, it's just fine to "indulge" in a hooker as long as she says it's okay, but if a man chooses NOT to based on his personal beliefs on the matter, then you get your panties in a bunch make remarks like you did in your opening message.

From my perspective, many people find prostitution (or beating up a woman) to be something we don't want to be part of, regardless of whether or not she agrees with the act.

I find it un-gentlemanly. Based on his words, the young Joel Northrup seems to feel the same way.

As for the rest of your post, you may want to have someone read my message out loud to you. My words were, and I quote: "The issue is not 'sexual,' and a gay guy isn't in the ring trying for crotch grabs."

So much for intellectual equality among the sexes.

Moral of the story: if a girl wants to fight a guy, that's fine. If a guy chooses not to based on his personal principles and self-identification, the least you can do is offer the same level of respect and dignity toward him. His actions did not harm her.

It is not about the girl, it is about the boy. It was unfair to put the boy in this situation. He was in a Lose-Lose-Lose situation. Beat the girl and get teased for beating up a girl. Lose to the girl and get teased even more for losing to a girl. Or just choose to forfeit.

I wonder how many of the "wins" that the girl had that were other forfeits. By how quickly the other girl was pinned, I would say that she was way out of her league.

Those that say the girls should be able to play with the boys if they can compete. Does that mean that you only support that the "boys" team should be coed? Or should a boy that is not good enough for the boys team be able to play with the girls?

I know lots of guys that would like to go shower with the girls. They have no problem with it. But strangely the girls have a problem with it. Why should the girls be able to control if some guy sees them naked if the guy does not have a problem with it?

So they put this kid in a situation where he has to grope some girl. She does not have a problem grabbing his junk, but maybe he has a problem with grabbing her. If both people are not comfortable with it, then it is unfair, regardless of who it is that feels uncomforatable.

As for young Joel, I commend him for standing up for his convictions. Freedom of religion is one of our basic rights and he and his family have exercised those rights by their actions. He should not be demeaned by any means although he might have missed an opportunity to enhance his own mental capacity. As he goes through life, Joel may learn how deal with difficult or uncomfortable situations with his mental strength.

But I'm sure that had he walked on the mat to wrestle that young lady, his mental strength would have insured that the furthest thing from his mind would have been sex. So it might have been uncomfortable at first but once he shot his first move, his training would have taken over and his superior strength and wrestling technique would have been obvious without a chance of embarrassing himself or the girl. That's mind over matter. Good wrestlers see their opponents as walking, talking wrestling dummies.

Having spent more than forty years of participating, coaching and officiating in American and Olympic styles, I can assure you that wrestling is the one of the most rigorous and difficult of all disciplines but it is neither violent, brutal nor dangerous because of very strict rules to protect the wrestlers. That is, providing that coaches teach proper technique and good sportsmanship and officials enforce rules to the letter during matches or tournaments.

Wrestling practices typically consist of a mix of agility and cardiovascular drills and numerous exercises that warm up the wrestlers for more vigorous contact and technique drills. Every successful wrestler must practice dozens of techniques and their counter attacks at full speed thousands of times during the season until each skill is perfected. I recall my college practices that our football team would observe as they entered the locker room and they would call our practice room the torture chamber.

Wrestling builds the character of its participants during every minute of practice and actual matches. It is a martial art just as judo, boxing, karate and jujitsu and it teaches participants, male or female, self defense skills that they will have at their disposal for the rest of their lives. Why shouldn't girls have the same access to this and other combat sports as boys? Last that I heard, females outnumber males in the US. That means it's just a matter of time until the demographics change so that girls only programs may grow.

Although Ms. Tewlup has the responsibility and right to raise her sons as she and her spouse see fit, she and the other puritan posters have no right to prevent girls from pursuing their dream even if they have to compete with boys. Back in the mid-'80's, I first officiated female wrestlers that were among the true pioneers at an international tournament in Venezuela. There were only about twenty girls representing a few nations and everyone of them had to practice with the men's teams. Over the last thirty years, there has been incredible growth in female participation numbers and development of talent and technique at all levels.

The bible thumpers need to open (air out) their dirty minds that makes sex and the human body something evil that they can't handle. If your intellect can't handle girls wrestling with boys, get over it. They are here to stay!

Jim in Auburn wrote "I know lots of guys that would like to go shower with the girls. They have no problem with it. But strangely the girls have a problem with it."

This is the best comment in this discussion. Why are women's feelings respected by not men's ? We know the answer : male opinion doesn't count. How would women feel if the wrestler boy totally "worked over" the girl and drove her to tears in the same manner he would work over a boy? If the boy learned to avoid athletic competition with women that demand both sex-segregation and sex-desegregation in sports when it suits them in home schooling, we should hire some of those home school teachers for public school.

If women do not want men to watch them workout, a franchise such as Curves meets the need in every strip mall. Just imagine if there was a business catering *only* to men right next to Curves.

Bunch of religious hicks. Wow, they're wrestling. Mind and muscle versus mind and muscle. They're not having intercourse. He doesn't get points to grab her boobs. The goal is to pin those shoulder blades for 3 seconds, that's it. Puritanical misanthropes turning everything into a perv fest as usual. Go sing kumbaya and talk about how Jonah survived swimming in a whale's stomach bile with no air and leave the rest of the world free of your nonsensical beliefs.

Nice religious bigotry, howdy. How would you respond if the kid was muslim and said his religion forbade wrestling women? You are the "hick" you just shroud yourself in a fallacious fog of moral superiority.

It was completely unfair to put the boy in this situation. He had a choice of either going against his religious beliefs or forfeiting any chance at winning the state tournament which, according to a previous article, he was one of the favorites to win. This boy was put in a complete no-win situation. No matter what he did, he would be criticized. If he wrestled her and won, he would be harassed for beating up on a girl. If he lost he would be harassed for losing to a girl. And in doing what he did, default the match, he lost all chance at winning the tournament. I will not even get into the argument about sexual contact. How could the boy focus solely on his wrestling when he would be constantly thinking about avoiding touching the girl in an inappropriate place, because you know if he did there would be an outcry from the girl, her parents, the officials, and everyone else looking to show how sensitive and enlightened they are. The boy would not have been able to go into the match with the same aggressive mentality that he would against another boy. Boys have it drilled into their heads from a very young age that they should not play too rough with girls. How do you then expect this boy to essentially go into combat against a girl and take the no holds barred attitude it takes to win in wrestling.

If he had wrestled the girl and injured her, everyone from the school board president on down would be pointing fingers at whomever they felt was responsible. Some would say it is the girls parents fault for letting her compete against the boys in such a physical sport. Others would blame the officials for not stopping the match before she got hurt. Yet others accuse the boy for being rougher than he needed to be to win the match and trying to "make her pay" for daring to compete against the boys. And there would even be some who would blame the girl for being out there in the first place where she "did not belong." There are some sports where coed is just not appropriate. I would say that any contact sport is not an appropriate place for girls to be competing with boys.

If adults want to go play gender politics fine, however, it is not appropriate to use children as pawns in this battle.

Fred the Evil, bringing prostitution into the conversation is irrelevant.

Moral of the story: if a girl wants to fight a guy, that's fine. If a guy chooses not to based on his personal principles and self-identification, the least you can do is offer the same level of respect and dignity toward him. His actions did not harm her.

Respect? There's no respect in discriminating against your fellow athletes. What if he didn't want to wrestle a black person or a Jewish person? Would you still offer him the same level of respect and dignity?

When guys and girls step into the ring, there is no male and female, only wrestlers. It's unfortunate that he and you cannot understand that.

If they do and they get hurt, then don't go crying that you're a girl afterwards. Women fought for equality in America, but they still expect the man to pay their way through life, dinner, gifts, open the doors for them etc, etc, maybe it's time they start paying for dinner for a change.

Before you spouted off on howdy's wrestling knowledge, dying, you should not have depended on your own. Actually, howdy is right and you are confused.

FYI: The American style wrestled in our schools has a three second fall count and always has. Olympic or International styles, Freestyle and Greco Roman, have a one second fall.

I would just like to add that I am suprised how my comment rated so many different levels of venom from some people. These are CHILDREN and I know I never mentioned sexual contact as a reason for the boy not to wrestle. It is the adults in this forum that are leaning toward the inappropriate, etc.

I don't think that my views are "puritanical" as many have said. I played several sports in high school and some in college. I was on a girls team because I am a female. I think that we should keep our sports team seperate because we are DIFFERENT!!! Why does our society keep wanting to make males and females the same? We are not! We should embrace the differences instead of forcing us to be the same. Equal opportunity does not mean EVERYONE is equal... it means that you have to opportunity to do whatever job anyone else can. I think we should stop having that bleed into every other aspect of our lives.

I am not teaching my sons to think less of women but the opposite. They have a mother that has a college degree and a successful, corporate job and is still a consistent source of love and guidance to them. My husband and I teach by example. We show them how their father is respectful to his mother and myself. That way they will grow up and be respectful and loving to their wives. WHY IS THAT WRONG??

It is disturbing to me some of the comments here that have gone off track. I simply meant to applaud a young man for standing up for his beliefs. We don't hear about that much in the news and I applaud him for doing so.

lol, you obviously don't wrestle. Watch the ref, he moves his arm like a sideways tomahawk chop 3 times then pounds the mat on pin. You can score by touching both shoulder-blades, but that doesn't conclude the match, only a 3 second pin does. I lettered 4 years in wrestling in Philly.

As for religious bigotry, I'm against people who oppress others due to inane beliefs. Pew institute did a survey, and the least knowledgeable about religion were self-described the most fervent believers. The most knowledgeable were atheists. Meaning, the more you learn about religion, the less likely you are to believe it. I believe in equality and fairness to all persons, regardless of race, gender, sexuality, or religious belief. I get angry when people's own lack of knowledge about their own religion leads them to oppress others, in this case, oppressing the girl's right to wrestle.

well howdy, you obviously have no issue with using your secular humanism to oppress and degrade non-secular people. Basically, you just proved you're a hypocrite.

50 years ago the rednecks were making BS arguments about why whites should have to compete against Blacks. Same BS now!!

Get over it people this is sport!!!

If the girl earned her way into the tourney than she has every right to compete.

Dying ain't much, lol you moron. Read your own quote. Continuous 2 seconds. You negated yourself in your own quote. FOOL. LOL, L2Read.

Yankee,

Tell me a sport that is not "appropriate" for boys!

This young athlete went 20-13 in Iowa High School wrestling she deserve respect! She EARNED her right to be in that tournament!!!

Sorry SPG but I could not disagree more. Your trying to make it sound like there is no real difference between boys and girls and I'm sorry but there is. It's not sexist, it's a fact of life. You can't expect a teenage boy to ignore the fact that he is grabbing a girls boob or running his arm across her crotch. It's simply not fare. I feel bad for this girl. I really do. I bet it ticks her off to no end that this kid withdrew. I'm sure she would love to prove herself but it is not fair to the boys. I really don't see the sense in mixing genders in almost any sport. Not swimming, golf, track, certainly not contact sports like MMA, football, or boxing and at the top of the list is wrestling.

And how many of those 20 wins were by forfeit? The other girl also had a good record, and she was pinned in seconds showing that she was way out of her league.

Jim has the pulse of the discussion. If all of the girls lose in record time at the state finals, they shouldn't be there as they really are unqualified.

Vincent, it't words like "unqualifed" that may be part of the problem here. The reason so many people would support this girls decision to compete is because they are trying to prove that women are equal to men. That they are not inferior, they are not subjugated, they are not unqualified. And they are correct. Women are none of these things. What they are is different, and all I can say to that is Thank God. What would we men do without the the wonderful amazing women in our lives. Maybe instead of telling women what they can't do, or why they are inferior to men, we should be placing a higher value on what women can do.

Rhino,

You are absolutely right that men and women are different in many ways and those differences make life far more enjoyable for many of us. However to act as if we should not allow women to compete in sports with men because it may make some body uncomfortable is ludicrous.

As a coach, yes I would expect a wrestler male or female to be able to ignore the fact that they may "touch" another wrestler during a match. I expect them to be able to ignore the fact that putting someone in an arm bar may actually injure that person if their opponent rolls it wrong. I would expect my wrestlers to go out an execute what they have been taught to the best of their abilities no matter who they are wrestling. This shows respect to their opponents, to their team, to the sport and to themselves.

Sorry coach (spg64) but I have to disagree. Let me ask you something? Is it also OK if a a boy were to take advantage of the fact that his apponent has breasts and start wrenching on them because he knows it will hurt her a lot more than a boy. Or maybe he just wants to take advantage of his opportunity to get in a good grope. Is that still OK?

Based on his complete lack of response I can infer that I have officially stumped the group It other words, gender equality only goes so far. Girls and boys are diffent and we need to respect thos differences. Not waste all this time trying to explain those differences away.

if it's NOT offered, then the girls need to be allowed to compete.

So, does that mean that, since volleyball is not offered for boys in most states, they should be able to play on the girls' team?

Amen Chris. What's good for the goose......

@Chris: By all means. This is what equality is about-- boys should compete with girls against boys and girls teams. If we women want equality, then we need to be prepared to be compared in EVERYTHING, all the way back to high school. If a woman can go fight and die for her country, a teenage girl should be able to play on a boys team.

Thank GOD someone sees the blatant favorism and blind anti-male feel of the Title IX gone awry.

All the posters ranting on how girls can play on boys' teams in a co-ed situation are self-serving. If it's so practical and noble, then why have separate male and female restrooms? Why create different jean cuts and rises between the genders? Why have breast cancer awareness walks and national marketing and none for concerning prostate cancer?

Volleyball is an acute example of reverse discrimation. In high school I kknew of two boys that were excellent volleyball players and the (ugly) womens volleyball coach, who obviously hated men even though married, would publicly mock and laugh at them when they offered to help take stats during sanctioned events. Then, in college, it became very apparent that women's volleyball was queen, but even though dozens of guys, enough for varsity and JV teams, had interest, mens volleyball was always shut out and relegated to a club team. A few years later, they add womens' ice hockey.

Why is it universities and colleges offer more sports for women than men? Isn't their federal funding cut for such reverse inequalities?

I find it insulting that girls are so easily allowed to participate in boys' sports, but the opposite isn't allowed. Is the girl using the boy's locker room? How can she be a true teammate?

If you don't think there's some sexual connotation with men and women playing the same sport, you're truly unathletic and have NEVER played other than in remedial gym classes. Teenagers comment about it, snide or provacative, questions arise, the mind wanders...that's an issue that doesn't need to to pushed into sports.

Clearly any and all girl cheerleaders need to be excluded from male events then, too. We all know they really serve no purpose other than to promote popularity and provoke the glands.

And Beth, your comment reeks with misandrous tone, too.

If guys can't "deal with it", tough.

Arguably, if a girl wants to play a sport or activity that's been sponsored and developed for boys, "tough, deal with it." Men are still here, too, and women truly need to stop the bullying attitude so many are empowered to have starting from junior high.

The real reason for separation of sexes in HS sports is funding. Girls get a sport with equal funding as the same season guys sport. Period.

If girls should receive the same funding, let them be responsible for an equal number of ticket sales. Otherwise, let the sex that both wants sports and is able to draw an audience get the lion's share of the budget. I don't see a "men's center" on any college campus.

Women have different needs, and no gender neutral arguments suffice. Judging by the absence of women playing pick-up sports even when all courts are unoccupied, it is a function of a substantially lower female interest in sports. That is not to say that women should not be exposed to sports. It's just that men need and want sports more.

Beth, you're being insensitive to what these young men have to go through with their peers. I agree totally, that this is a lose-lose situation for this young man -- if he loses, he'll get teased for getting beat up my a girl. If we wins, he'll get hammered --- for beating up a girl (and he won't get the credit he deserves because, well --- he beat a girl)! Think about it. Look at it from his point of view. Someone brought up an excellent point --- the culture of young people is cruel and heartless -- remember how it was in high school.

So, does that mean that, since volleyball is not offered for boys in most states, they should be able to play on the girls' team?

Absolutely. Check with your state high school activities association. You'll probably find in most of them that boys can play volleyball on the girls tieam if there is no volleyball team offered for them.

Volleyball is an acute example of reverse discrimation. In high school I kknew of two boys that were excellent volleyball players and the (ugly) womens volleyball coach, who obviously hated men even though married, would publicly mock and laugh at them when they offered to help take stats during sanctioned events.

That's ONE coach who obviously had problems. Obviously so did the administration for not stopping it. Check the regs in your state -- chances are, boys CAN play volleyball.

Someone brought up an excellent point --- the culture of young people is cruel and heartless -- remember how it was in high school.

LIFE is cruel and heartless. Dealing with wrestling a girl is NOTHING compared to what they will deal with as adults.

If a woman can go fight and die for her country, a teenage girl should be able to play on a boys team.

EXACTLY. And that girl wrestler just may end up COMMANDING those boys someday in the military. They'll definitely have to learn to deal with her THEN!

I might also point out, that in addition to wrestling -- girls play football!

But I think it's interesting with all the hammering on me -- no one bothered to notice that I said it was PREFERABLE for there to be both mens and womens wrestling. Typical.

I disagree with your estimation of boys hazing over this situation more than men. I was a teenage wrestler that nearly had to wrestle a girl. Even though she got eliminated, i still took a hell of alot of teasing.

Laura wrote " If a woman can go fight and die for her country, a teenage girl should be able to play on a boys team."

But women are not allowed in combat zones. Forms for mandatory registration for eighteen year-old men, but not women, are available at your local US Post Office. If you want to play that way, your sentence should be :

Since women are not required by law to register for the armed forces under the Selective Service act, there is no reason for a girl to play on a boys team.

Beth wrote "Dealing with wrestling a girl is NOTHING compared to what they will deal with as adults.

I just realized that I'm replying to another of of your inane fake Feminist arguments which merely argues for removing restrictions for women when it suits them and adding restrictions when it does not.

So, why, then, does sex segregation exist in sports when it does not exist in schools, the modern workplace? If boy wrestlers have to deal with wrestling a girl, why don't boy soccer players have to compete with girls?

@Vincent: Clearly, you've no understanding about how the military works-- Yes, up until GULF WAR ONE, women weren't "technically"allowed on the combat lines. Yet women were still captured and/or killed--since the Revolutionary War. There ARE no combat lines drawn in the current wars: Afghanistan and Iraq are mainly urban conflict and there's no "Okay, this street is the front line and ladies, don't walk past it." Read "Love My Rifle More Than You". It's a story about a woman in MI. She went out with the boys farther than any female was EVER assigned. She got shot at, she killed, right up there with the big guns. She speaks Arabic and was an interpreter for an Army unit-- sometimes she was assigned to INFANTRY units, WHICH ARE WHOLLY AND COMPLETELY MALE Caught hell, but MOST treated her like a soldier. Jessica Lynch was captured, her female battle buddy was killed.

More female KIA/captured/wounded:

http://gardenofpraise.com/ibdsamp.htm [this site is meant for children, but it has information on AT LEAST three women that served in the Revolutionary War.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/guardandreserve/a/ng1stfemalekia.htm "Witmer was the 17th female Soldier to die during Operation Iraqi Freedom, an Army spokesperson said. Eleven have been killed from improvised explosive devices or other forms of hostile fire."

[paragraph after last in above link:] "“The Army National Guard had eight female casualties during Desert Shield and Desert Storm, but none of them died as a result of hostile fire,” she explained." [which, really, is just another way of saying that they died in training accidents or vehicular accidents.]

http://www.arrse.co.uk/current-affairs-news-analysis/136845-150th-canadian-kia-afghanistan-third-female-kia.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lori_Piestewa

I really do believe in equality. If women WANT equality and equal rights and equal pay for equal work, let them be drafted like men are. Austria and many European countries, not to mention Israel and Russia, require AT LEAST two years by ANY able-bodied citizen over a certain age (usually 18). Equal rights are equal rights. This should start in high school: girls want equal rights, boys play on girls teams and vice versa.

The world isn't fair. In the Army (and the rest of the military), the VAST majority of the times, one is judged by their abilities as a service member, not by their chromosomes. You learn that REAL quick in boot camp-- that just because you're a girl, nobody takes it easy on you. We wrestled with the big boys, we WON against the big boys and we'll keep doing it.

Laura, I served in the Marines in The Wing. While I fully agree with your stance in MOST of the MOSs, I have to disagree with women in Combat MOS. It has nothing to do with the women. It has to do with the shortcomings of young men. As is the problem with gender mixing most of the time. Our culture continues to evolve on this issue, but it's still not time to jump in with both feet. IMO

Laura-759812 wrote "If women WANT equality and equal rights and equal pay for equal work, let them be drafted like men are."

While you are a "progressive", you should mention that women should share the death toll in war equally as well as contribute equally to the killing and maiming of the targets of the US military.

Women in the US already have equal pay for equal work. For evidence, find the US Dept. of Labor report from 2009 entitled "An Analysis of Reasons for the Disparityin Wages Between Men and Women"

" In the Army (and the rest of the military), the VAST majority of the times, one is judged by their abilities as a service member, not by their chromosomes."

Chromosomes have a profound influence on physiology, and this is reflected in the armed forces by allowing women to qualify with slower and weaker bodies. The military does not recruit twelve year-old boys, and the average woman has the height/weight but not risk-tolerance or strength of a twelve year-old boy.

You just made my point further, Vincent: with the new legislation, more combat MOSs will be made available for females.

The majority for equal pay for equal work is in teh military. Everyone the same rank gets paid the SAME way. Female privates get paid the same as male privates; female lieutenants are paid the same as male lieutenants. Elsewhere, in the CORPORATE world, it's not so much: http://www.now.org/issues/economic/factsheet.html

Second bullet in above link: "In 1963, when the Equal Pay Act was passed, full-time working women were paid 59 cents on average for every dollar paid to men. This means it took 44 years for the wage gap to close just 19 cents -- a rate of less than half a penny a year. This narrowing of the gap has slowed down over the last six years, with women gaining a mere two cents since 2001. ^2"

I don't think this young man was afraid of losing to a girl. After all he did have a much better win to loss ratio than she did. What I think bothered him was the kind of contact that would have occurred. The fact that the young woman was willing to have that contact does not mean she has a right to force the young man in to that same contact. He joined wrestling to wrestle other young men. If you think that its a sexual issue, you're way off base. The issue is in our society males are not to be aggressive toward females. The reasoning behind this is men are typically larger and physically stronger. They are typically able to cause more harm than the woman could inflict in defense.

so Nebraska001, why a red flag concerning homeschooling?

Nebraska you are completely missing the point unfortunately. He was the favorite to win the entire class, she most likely won't win her first actual match (according to expectations). To say he wimped out is ludicrous. As an ex-wrestler I can tell you that it is a very inappropriate postion to be in as a male. Not easy for a female either, but to them it is a "great opportunity" and a "barrier breaking milestone". Completely different situations for each participant, and something this guy felt went against how he was raised, something I applaud. Enough with the "wimped out" comments already, grow up.

Yeah right Big Nebraska Man, your tough. What grade you in this year?

The kid wimped out... no excuses. He was afraid he would get his butt whipped by the female wrestler.

Wrong. This kid is considered one of the best in the state (like 35-5) and the girl, while she should be commended for doing well, as a much poorer record (20-14). People close to the situation say he could have handled her very easily.

Actually, it takes courage and strength to sacrifice a championship for your convictions. But I wouldn't expect someone like you, in a generation of Americans who tolerate people who say one thing and do another, to understand.

But of course a red flag always goes up for me when I hear some kid is home schooled.

Yea, because the American public school system is ranked so high amongst the world, that only fools would home school their kids right?

Give me a break!

Nebraska

Your bigoted attitude towards homeschooling not withstanding, your accusing the young man of being a wimp is disgusting. He obviously has more strength of character than you. He should be honored by having convictions on the proper treatment and respect for women, something our culture knows little of anymore. Even the girls father had respect for him. What is your problem.

Personally, I think this boy was much more concerned about the ways in which he would have to touch his opponent than he was of offending God (who, after all, did create two genders). A kid that age is a hormonal basket-case and he probably was terrified he'd either grab the wrong part of her body (very likely) and/or get himself into an embarrassing state (!) if he did (also likely).

I also believe that wrestling is one of those sports that just doesn't work well as co-ed, whether or not it "should" be allowed.

I honestly don't understand all this nonsense about the boy being placed in a difficult position. I wrestled in high school and there were several girls on out team and several more in the district. Some of them were quite talented athletes and yes, they sometimes beat the boys. It simply wasn't a big deal. If this kid were any kind of athlete, he would be thinking about how to win the match; the fact that his opponent was a girl should be irrelevant. The kid wimped out because he was uncomfortable wrestling a girl, not because he thought he would lose.

And to address some of the other comments, sure, pound for pound men and more likely to be stronger than women, but thats no reason to keep the women from competing. There is just as much natural variation among guys' builds too. Should we separate out the guys by build as well to ensure everything is fair?

And being home-schooled might mean he has not been around girls enough to feel comfortable with them. The wrestling match might have been the closest thing he'd ever had to a date! Talk about awkward for the young "hormonal basket-case"!

Nebraska -

I would bet my annual salary against your lunch allowance that home-schooled kids academically outscore public school kids at every level in every subject.

You apparently are still in public grammar school.

lynseypug

Your ignorance of home-schooling is showing. And your sexist comment and attitude toward the boy is exactly why many choose to home-school so their children are not subjected to that kind of thinking in the public school system. You don't have to agree with home-schooling but before you make bigoted comments about those that do, get educated about what home-schooling is all about. I'll take a society full of young men like this one in the story over the sexual predators and abusers of women that the public school system turns out. Do you have any idea about what goes on sexually in the public schools? It is beyond disgusting. Guys and girls hooking up anonymously. Girls giving oral sex to guys at the drop of a hat. Teachers having sex with students is at epidemic levels. Get a clue before you bash home-schooling.

And, as Doctor Larry points out, home-schoolers consistently run circles around public school students academically.

I have homeschooled my sons, and have taught in a homeschool program. Homeschooling has good and bad 'educators'.

Some parents do it to circumvent our educational requirements so their kids can work...Russian immigrants, specifically in the program I worked with.

Others do it to give their children a better education.

Still others do it to spend more time with their children.

Finally, many do it because they don't like or agree with the values taught by being around our 'typical' American youth, and want to inject their Religion into every aspect of their child's education and life, completely isolating the child.

So while IN GENERAL homeschooled children outcompete public school children there is one area in which they are handicapped, thanks to the fundamentalist environment they live in: they don't understand science. Period. But then, neither does most of America, because the flat earth/young earth/creationists are injecting their religion into science and trying to legitimize their religion AS science.

So keep your salary, Doc, you're wrong when it comes to science education. However, when it comes to courtesy, respect, and a work ethic, these kids are unsurpassed. They're not spoiled, entitled, lazy, whiny kids that teachers have to contend with in public schools. That Pennsylvania teacher who was suspended over her blog was dead on the money...

except for overreaching generalization on the religious aspect, pretty good statement.

O and the public school teaches real science? Ever heard of Haeckel's recapitulation theory (or biogenetic law)? Exposed by his non-religious colleagues 100 years ago as a fraud and a lie and that he faked the drawings, but the theory and drawings are still in science text books in public schools today. Talk about bad science.

Your lumping flat earth and young earth together as if those who believe in a young earth also believe in a flat earth is ridiculous. I defy you to provide one documented case of anyone who questions the assumptions of evolutionary theory today who believes in a flat earth. Also, provide me with one proven example of a transitional fossil. You can't do it because they don't exist or if they do, no one has found one. Every claim has been a mistake or a fraud. Darwin himself said the lack of transitional forms was the major problem with his theory and it still is. He said without them his whole theory collapses. So you have a theory being taught as fact. Nothing wrong with theories but it is bad science to teach them as fact. Google "secular science questions evolution" and get educated before you criticise home schoolers eduction.

Nebraska001 wrote "The kid wimped out... no excuses."

No. He did not want to engage in fake match in which he would have to coddle to Feminist preferences. Wrestling matches carry a high risk of injury, and some have caused death. No one cares if a boy dies. If a girl dies, the boy wrestler's life is ruined for making the stupid choice of wrestling a girl.

Also, if the boy does not refuse, then Feminist Lawyer Associations will sue every school despite the fact that their past lawsuits have dismantled the bulk of high school and college wrestling teams.

punk chemist wrote " but thats no reason to keep the women from competing. There is just as much natural variation among guys' builds too. "

That's the best reason I've read for complete sex desegregation of sports. Let everyone compete on equal terms, regardless of sex. This is the argument used for same sex marriage, so I don't see why men have *zero* opportunities to play on women's teams when they are rejected by men's teams while women are apparently free to pay on the team of their choice.

Women are free to compete on men's teams only when there isn't a womens team for them to compete on. Usually this means wrestling and football. If there were womens teams, then that would be the appropriate place for them to compete.

And this isn't a one way street. If there was only a womens team for a particular sport and a guy wanted to participate, then they should be allowed to. The only example that comes to mind is cheerleading, at least at the non-competitive, high school level. If I recall correctly, there were one or two guys on the team while I was in high school. I say, if they are good enough, let them compete.

every school in the nation provides an equal sports opportunity for each sex, per season.

David, I have to support and totally agree with your position and overall comment.

actually I think he was ranked 5th in the state.

Thanks, James. Lisa, you're right... he was ONE OF the favorites to win the tournament according to the wording in the article. My original comment was misleading.

I find the remark "its a lose-lose situation for the guy, if he wins, so what, he beat a girl..." incredibly demeaning toward all female athletes, and I'm a guy. These women are athletes as well who have earned the right to be in this competition so they must be talented. Gender should be irrelevant; she is another opponent. If the guy wins, then he is the better athlete. On the flip side, if the girl wins, then she is the better athlete, end of story.

Punk Chemist, you are on point!

Gender is irrelevant. It is a sociopolitical classification, that place limits on us to varying degrees.

No, it's not acceptable to say 'well, sorry, we don't offer this to girls, therefore you can't compete'.

Wrestling is a fun sport, and is far more practical than any other sport offered in school. It should be offered to BOTH boys and girls, and anything less is not acceptable. It's not all about size and strength, as they wrestle within weight classes which evens the competition and also changes the strategy of the wrestler based on the weight class they're in.

punk chemist wrote "These women are athletes as well who have earned the right to be in this competition so they must be talented. "

OK. So, if the best girls can wrestle with the boys, why can't the 2nd string boys that were excluded from the main wrestling team because their lesser ability wrestle on the girls team?

wherecommonsense wrote No, it's not acceptable to say 'well, sorry, we don't offer this to girls, therefore you can't compete'."

Is it acceptable to place the burden of ticket sales on the boys?

In nearly all cases for sports team, there are many boys that do not make the rounds of cuts for tryouts while women's teams do not have tryouts at all and often have empty spots on their roster *only* because there are not enough women interested to even show up.

I wonder how many of this girls wins came by way of forfeit?

NO, they don't. Similar to the if-you-don't-want-to-get-beat-get-better philosophy, if a sport's not offered, get more girls involved so it HAS TO BE offered.

And how to do you propose to GET them interested without a program to do it. This is the chicken and the egg. Since the only program that exists in MOST states is for boys, then the only way to get them interested in is let the girls compete there.

OK. So, if the best girls can wrestle with the boys, why can't the 2nd string boys that were excluded from the main wrestling team because their lesser ability wrestle on the girls team?

OK .. THINK. The whole issue is that there IS NO WRESTLING FOR GIRLS. So there is no "girls team". Got it? Second, on most wrestling teams I'm aware of, the best wrestler at the weight class is who competes -- boys or girls.

In nearly all cases for sports team, there are many boys that do not make the rounds of cuts for tryouts while women's teams do not have tryouts at all and often have empty spots on their roster *only* because there are not enough women interested to even show up.

Really? Don't know where you are, but or girls AND boys rosters are pretty full. However NEITHER our our teams cut.

Beth-440386 wrote "And how to do you propose to GET them interested without a program to do it?"

Why do women need a special program to interest them in sports?

"Don't know where you are, but or girls AND boys rosters are pretty full. "

You don't pay attention. Go to any school and take a look at all of the athletes competing for spots. I'm not talking about field hockey or softball (women only), but soccer and track. There are tons more boys competing for the spots. Yet, the system cuts out boys that athletically are superior in performance to women, giving women an advantage only because their sexual plumbing is internal.

The reasons women are not competing for spots on the boys baseball team are :

1) women can not compete with boys. The average adult women has the height and weight of a twelve year-old boy but lower risk-tolerance and strength

2) women are less interested in sports (and computer science/math/physic/physical sciences/engineering) despite every attempt made to encourage them to participate

@ vincent, two comments

1) there usually isn't a women's wrestling team, that is why the girls compete with the boys in the first place. If there was, this wouldn't be an issue.

2) I don't know how it is in other parts of the country, but when i wrestled in high school in the late 90's, no one was cut from the team. If you showed up to practice, you were on the team and everyone had the right to challenge for the varsity position at their weight before every tournament.

Exactly punk -- no one is cut in our sports either. Show up, practice and you are on the team. Period.

And, I've also agreed with your first point as well -- although no one here WANTS to read that part.

That's because of earlyer equality movement issues and budget constraints, folks. Schools must offer equal sports oportunities for each sex per season. The boys have a team, the girls have a team. Alot of the time it's two sepparite teams in the same sport.

If you desegregate these barriers in school sports the end result will be that girls will get assed out of competeing. Like was mentioned before, AVERAGES show that many more boys are in sports and more of them GENERALY compete at a higher level than the girls.

That's because of earlyer equality movement issues and budget constraints, folks. Schools must offer equal sports oportunities for each sex per season. The boys have a team, the girls have a team. Alot of the time it's two sepparite teams in the same sport.

And there is nothing wrong with that -- it's as it should be. BUT if there is NOT an equivalent team, then you need to allow cross gender participation

.If you desegregate these barriers in school sports the end result will be that girls will get assed out of competeing

No one is talking about desegregating existing teams where girls and boys compete in equivalent sports.

AVERAGES show that many more boys are in sports and more of them GENERALY compete at a higher level than the girls

And here is the fallacy in your "argument" -- it is not about NUMBERS. It is about OPPORTUNITY. Without OPPORTUNITY, the numbers will never exist.

you missed a very important point. If all sports are desegregated girls will not be represented equally over a period of time.

If schools can afford it, have sepparate boys and girls wrestling teams. Not many schools can that is why boys wrestle, and girls have volleyball. It is equality in action. If you let boys on the volleyball team, the larger number of boys playing sports and average taller will eventually force girls out of having the opportunity to participate.

see what i'm saying? Effing with the status quo will lead to less equality eventually.

Hambone -- you obviously pay NO ATTENTION.

Most of use here SUPPORT separate teams. ONLY if is not possible then should girls wrestle on boys teams. They should have the opportunity to compete in that sport.

As to volleyball -- if there is NO male volleyball team (and in some states there are) -- then boys are allowed to play.

This is ALREADY the status quo.

Generally speaking, volleyball is offered at the same time as football NOT wrestling. So, most boys choose to play football instead. They don't have to. BTW: Hate to break it to you -- but girls play football too!

Boys are allowed on the girls sports?

Uh -- yes! We've been saying this all along if you had paid attention! Title IX works both ways!

Not anywhere I've had my daughter in school.

I suspect they COULD have if they had wanted to -- they just didn't want to. Check the rules.

Exactly. He's a coward.

He's a coward? He treated her as a second class citizen? Do the moron genes tend to be dominate in your blood lines?

He showed the proper respect for her gender, he took the position a proper gentleman should have taken. He did not demoralize her, as you have contended, he stated his position in contact sports and proper rules of intimacy and exercised his constitutional right to make a choice. I say to you two morons, that I am now in a wheelchair, forfeiting the use of two legs to defend the rights of you two redneck fools in a war that was labeled a big mistake, to come home after 3 years in a pow camp and be called a baby killer by people like you. Is there any chance you two will be standing on the sidewalk in my neighborhood, any time soon?

Internet threat fail. Thanks for your service. Sorry about your legs. And you're wrong about wrestling.

Disservice? He felt it was inappropriate to whoop up on a girl, which he would would have done given the difference in skill level between the two. I applaud her for breaking a barrier, and having the guts to match up against men, but she also put him in a position he was not comfortable with and he responded the way he felt was appropriate. There is a reason why women don't box men, even though they are in the same weight class, and that same reason applies here.

How do you know her skill level, she won at districts to qualify for sectionals, she won at sectionals to qualify for the state tournement, just like all the guys, maybe he would have won, maybe she would have won, but we will never know for sure because he wimped out.

James, I don't think anyone has called you a baby killer. I can both appreciate your service and consider the war in Iraq an unjustified invasion. You have both my thanks and my apology.

Get those mental issues addressed and be well.

Did you Kevin Bitz get your Wife anything Monday for Valentines Day or did you tell her it would be a disservice if you went to the trouble?

I'm absolutely CERTAIN that his young man understood all the mean-spirited ignorant and demented comments that would be said about him (as is happening all over this site) and he stood on his MORALS, not a political or social stand, but a MORAL stand. That's SO UNUSUAL in this morally decrepit world we live in! If he was my son (I have 3) I would applaud him as if he won the tourney! His MIND is stronger than his BODY, which apparently was quite a force, in and of itself.

ATTA BOY!!!!!

Lisa-499473 I know her skill level because I read up on the issue and also used to wrestle myself. Qualifying for state tournaments is based upon the section, district, and region of the state you live in. Some states have more "rounds/tourneys" others fewer. They all have their own tournaments and the quailty of competition is usually not equal amongst the different geographical areas. Her fellow female compatriate was pinned almost immediately in her match for example, and she qualified as well. This kid was favored to win his class, she was not considered even an outside contendor.

Nonsense.

Having separate divisions or sporting programs for boys and girls is fully legitimate and sound.

What's next? You'd allow an 18 year old senior to play in a division normally filled with 14 year olds just to allow the 18 year old to get a nice record or feel good?

I think, based on your reasoning, that men should start using women's public restrooms and not feel bad for leaving any seats up.

Give us all a break. I bet even if a terminally ill young boy had a last wish to be in the rotation on a girls volleyball team or the girls tennis roster, he'd be scorned by female-loving agenda-pushers.

James, with all due respect, NO ONE on this board insulted you. We merely disagreed with you.

I don't know if you refer to Vietnam or Iraq, but whichever -- thank you for your service. However, I also reserve the right to respectively disagree with you without threatening anyone.

Kevin Bitz wrote " What it amounted to was he treated her as a second class citizen...."

So, how would this girl wrestler feel if the boy wrestler (superior by record in this example) treated her as another boy wrestler and schooled her to injury?The girl wrestler treated her male competitor as a 2nd class citizen by taking advantage of social convention to treat her differently than a male competitor.

So, how would this girl wrestler feel if the boy wrestler (superior by record in this example) treated her as another boy wrestler and schooled her to injury?The girl wrestler treated her male competitor as a 2nd class citizen by taking advantage of social convention to treat her differently than a male competitor.

Like any athlete competing at a state level -- she knows the consequences of the sport. I also suspect she's been injured many times in the past as most wrestlers have. And SHE didn't take advantage of him It was HIS choice to default.

The boy made the correct choice to default. Women have a lot of protections in our society due to their feelings (separate restrooms, changing rooms, etc.), and it appears that there is little concern for men's feeling on any matter.

Now that is a RIDICULOUS comment.

Who was wondering why home schooling was brought into this? Until and unless wrestling involves penetration, I think Puritans should stop sexualizing the sport. Nobody's getting their jollies off it except pent-up, frustrated thumpers.

I don't agree, you are pitting people of opposite sexes in a very physical, high body contact sport. These kids are young, and at a really bad age to force them to interact with that much physical contact if it is out of their comfort zone or if they feel it is inappropriate.

This young man did the honorable thing, but was essentially punished for it by being forced to forfeit. The young woman was granted a win she did not earn, so she lost as well.

If you read the story, you would see that it clearly specifies that he wasn't "forced to forfeit"; 1) because he wasn't forced to do anything, he chose; and 2) because he didn't forfeit, he defaulted, which is treated differently and will not penalize him.

As to the physical contact thing, well boo-hoo, maybe the guy will learn that there is such a thing as non-sexual touch. Oh no, we can't have that, we have to have all males thinking S3X everytime they see a girl.

Sara, you obviously have not wrestled competatively and have no understanding of the sport, the contact involved, and the physical aspect of the sport. I wrestled myself and had to have stitches on two occasions, broke 3 fingers, and can't tell you how many eyes were blackened. If you are competing on a serious level (and Iowa is probably as serious as it gets) it is not about "non-sexual touching" it is about being uncomfortable exerting the type of physical violence upon a female that wrestlers do each and every match. Get a clue already, and stop with the "men should learn to treat women as non-sexual", it is completely missing the entire point if the issue and obviously more your own personal baggage.

pppffph

YOu get men and women together who play powe, competitive volleyball, and the women are the first to bitch and moan about it being unfair -- the net is higher and blocking by men more precise and definite and their spike hitting more severe.

Women get six-packed all the time when they intermingle on co-ed teams.

And as a matter of playing devil's advocate; what if a female wrestler has her period the day of weigh-in or the action match? Does that mean she gets the option to defer or not take a loss?

SaraBerry wrote "Federal law requires that if a school doesn't have a separate female team, they have to allow girls to compete on the only team they do have (the "boy's team")."

I remember this during Little League baseball. The Little League held tryouts to choose from the [little] Minor league. About 1 of 4 boys were selected. There was a girl on my Little League team, and she totally sucked. At the time, I was too young to understand that another boy with higher athletic qualifications was rejected by the Little League *only* because there was political pressure for a particular girl to play.

Hey, I'm all for equality. If boys and girls want to play baseball together, let them compete for the limited number of spots.

Buliwyff: I was responding to someone who implied that the physical contact is unfair because people would think of it as sexual. I never said no one gets hurt; of course they do. I'm not sure if you mixed up my comment with someone else's, as you seem to be responding to things I didn't say.

BumbleBeeJ: Periods? Really? You don't realize that that smacks of antiquated, sexist arguments from a century ago? Let me guess, you are one of those people who say a woman can't be president because she'll get PMS and bomb somebody, right? I have no idea how being on one's period would stop her from stepping on a scale or wrestling. There are these newfangled inventions called TAMPONS.

Vincent: The situation that you describe is very unfortunate, and the adults involved were not following the law. The girls are supposed to be held to the same standards as the boys. I'm sure they meant well, but they hurt both the boys and the little girl involved, as well as the equality movement in general. The only way all girls should play is if all boys play (i.e. there is no try-out process).

An adult woman, alone in a jet, versus a high school teenage boy and high school teenage girl wrestling one another. I don't see where you are going with this?

Actually Snaque, the only non comparison there is females in fighter jets-- and, depending on the jet, they may have a co-pilot. Helos require TWO pilots, LARGE aircraft (C-130s and the like) require two pilots. Women are also commanders of units-- my aunt was a colonel in the AF and the best CO I had was female-- and Secretaries of State.

There's not enough interest in girls for a separate league, so since the girl knows what she's getting into, she should be allowed to wrestle. It'll teach her how to deal with men ;)

What I mean is, does that female pilot fly the plane while sitting on the co-pilots lap. No. That would be inappropriate.

If these two wrestle, and the boy is holding the girl across her chest or between her legs, he might feel inappropriate or embarrassed. The boy was raised to respect women not to fight them.

Some people were also raised to feel uncomfortable having conversations with people who are different from them in certain ways. And, just like this, they better learn to get over it if they want to survive in the big, scary world.

"Thinking" - you are not paying attention nor thinking. There is a big difference in extremely physical individual sports and "talking",or flying a plane,or many other common items.

This is not a "Puritan" issue nor a home-schooling issue. Women file sexual harassment complaints all the time for much less than this (often for invited touching).

Just because some people don't have moral standards does not mean all of us should drop to their level.

One lawyer has already chimed in at the laughability of such worries. Show me all the assault convictions for dirty hits in hockey or football and I'll consider the possibility that participation in the sport wouldn't constitute consent to the risks involved.

As for the other bit above, my point is that attitudes change, thankfully. The world, whether conservative Americans like it or not, is shrinking and growing more inclusive and multicultural. Kids who grow up patronizing women by insultingly acting like they constantly have to "protect" them will find that their female boss won't actually like that sort of thing. It'll hurt them. Just like people who grew up in bigoted households (again, thankfully) can't really get away with perpetuating the outdated bull$#!+ their parents foisted on them.

Well, hopefully your opinion will work for me when i stone-cold knock hell out of the next chick that runs her mouth at me. That is what I do to a guy that prattles on. Are you saying that's OK?

Sure, Hambone. Go ahead. Go pick up soap in jail just like you would for doing that to a guy. Thanks for your contribution.

they ain't caught me yet!

I only said that 'cause I think that is where gender leveling will eventually end up. Which is sad because in terms of physical violence men will always hold the upper hand generally.

Well, hopefully your opinion will work for me when i stone-cold knock hell out of the next chick that runs her mouth at me. That is what I do to a guy that prattles on. Are you saying that's OK?

Nope -- it's not. And it's not OK to hit a guy just because you don't like what he says either. But somehow I don't feel it matters to you. Enjoy jail.

TPUF wrote "Women fly combat aircraft from 100,000 ton aircraft carriers, are commanding officers of warships and young women officers will soon join the wardrooms of nuclear submarines."

Yet, women do not sustain any casualties in direct combat duty because it is illegal for them to serve as soldiers in combat zones. The real question to ask is : why do we need female combat officers at all? What special abilities does a woman provide? A 6th sense - a sex-specific intuition about combat?

BS. I called you out on a previous comment about this. Links posted again.

http://gardenofpraise.com/ibdsamp.htm [this site is meant for children, but it has information on AT LEAST three women that served in the Revolutionary War.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/guardandreserve/a/ng1stfemalekia.htm "Witmer was the 17th female Soldier to die during Operation Iraqi Freedom, an Army spokesperson said. Eleven have been killed from improvised explosive devices or other forms of hostile fire."

[paragraph after last in above link:] ""The Army National Guard had eight female casualties during Desert Shield and Desert Storm, but none of them died as a result of hostile fire," she explained." [which, really, is just another way of saying that they died in training accidents or vehicular accidents.]

http://www.arrse.co.uk/current-affairs-news-analysis/136845-150th-canadian-kia-afghanistan-third-female-kia.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lori_Piestewa

You wanna know what Lynch and Piestewa were? There weren't infantry, though the military trains you that EVERYONE is infantry. They were SUPPLY-- a NON COMBAT MOS...

Yet, women do not sustain any casualties in direct combat duty because it is illegal for them to serve as soldiers in combat zones.

In the "new" warfare -- pretty much every place in country is a combat zone. That's why the military and Congress are revisiting that archaic prohibition.

BTW: I doubt the MEN that died by being blown up by an IED would tell you the were NOT in a combat zone! (If of course, they were alive to do so!)

What's the point of a female wresting? The only thing I can think of is she, and probably her mom, are trying to make a statement. The reason I say this is does she still think she's going to be wrestling in a couple of years? Does she think she's going to get a wrestling scholarship to some college?

What's the point of a female wresting?

Perhaps she likes it and her goal is to become an Olympian!

Beth:

Sure, and didn't you want to become a nurse, lawyer or doctor? But realistically, coming from Iowa, where does wrestling fit into any future life's occupation? Anybody know of a wrestling scholarship awarded any female? Ever?

Me neither.

Can I hug you? That post just made the most sense in the entire thread.

This boy did what he thought was right by him and I applaud him for that. I would like to applaud the girl if I knew she just smiled and said "Okay, maybe another time."

Like in the Army-- there is no gender on the battlefield. A soldier bleeds red no matter what the gender.

kanseswrestler wrote "As a high school wrestler, I believe that on the mat there are no boys and girls, only wrestlers."

Would you apply that to all other sports?

Laura-759812 wrote "Like in the Army-- there is no gender on the battlefield. A soldier bleeds red no matter what the gender."

You should use the word sex. Gender implies that people have a choice about their sex.

Everyone bleeds red, but in the US workplace and in combat zones with US forces, nearly 100% of deaths are male. So, it is men dying while women merely want to change their career options without actually taking them.

http://gardenofpraise.com/ibdsamp.htm [this site is meant for children, but it has information on AT LEAST three women that served in the Revolutionary War.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/guardandreserve/a/ng1stfemalekia.htm "Witmer was the 17th female Soldier to die during Operation Iraqi Freedom, an Army spokesperson said. Eleven have been killed from improvised explosive devices or other forms of hostile fire."

[paragraph after last in above link:] ""The Army National Guard had eight female casualties during Desert Shield and Desert Storm, but none of them died as a result of hostile fire," she explained." [which, really, is just another way of saying that they died in training accidents or vehicular accidents.]

http://www.arrse.co.uk/current-affairs-news-analysis/136845-150th-canadian-kia-afghanistan-third-female-kia.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lori_Piestewa

Again, posted.

Children are fed this historical revisionist crap about equal contributions to war efforts by men and women. Hundreds of thousands of men died in military service. The women stayed at home, performing the critical service of raising children, and lived.

Your Revolutionary War example is about a woman that broke the law and lied to every soldier with which she came in contact for her entire military career, even assuming that the story was truthful. Who would want to serve next to such a fraud?

Laura - I echo your sentiments. Kansaswrestler -- excellent post!

As to Vincent's Revolutionary War comment ...

a woman that broke the law

... get real and study some history! EVERY SINGLE REVOLUTIONARY SOLDIER FIGHTING ON THE AMERICAN SIDE WAS BREAKING THE LAW! And, btw, I highly doubt there was a LAW that said women couldn't fight -- it was a convention. (But if you can find a Revolutionary War equivalent of the UCMJ I'd be happy to be corrected on that point.)

Here's some sources.

http://www.history.army.mil/reference/revbib/morale.htm

As a lawyer, I can assure you that there is no room here for any suit for sexual assault. That would be like a football player suing for being hit, which never happens because it is stupid. The football player consented to being tackled, and the wrestler consents to having normal wrestling holds used on her. The only thing worth suing over here is if they refused to let girls compete.

But I guess uneducated people like to demonize lawyers as a faceless "THEM" who is out to get everybody in any situation.

Whaat wrote "Under the surface are a slew of sleazy lawyers just waiting to sue the parents of young men, schools, etc. for sexual assault in the course of the match."

No. Feminist lawyers (National Organization of Women (NOW), National Women's Law Center, etc.) are salivating to extort funds from public schools in their misuse of Title IX. I'd like to know why men are not suing for equal opportunity in the school choir. There is money to be extorted, and these female organizations are ready to steal your tax dollars because women are less interested in sports and more interested in Women's Centers. Why doesn't a Men's Center exist on any college campus?

SaraBerry obviously escaped from the shark tank to swim with the clown fishes.

Hey, not a problem. I'm game for that. It'll teach the girls that there may be higher standards and it'll teach the boys that it's not all about boys playing sports.

I say this because I knew a girl in the Army who ran all but 5 of the men-- she had a 13 minute 2 mile. Nearly impossible, but this woman was an athlete in school. If the girls can hold up to the men's standards, why not?

Laura, the problem with that is there are relatively few women who can compete favorably with men in sports like volleyball, softball, tennis, golf, etc...and even fewer who can do what your Army girl did. If men were allowed on womens' teams in high school, there would soon be very few women playing.

And your reasoning is why girls should be allowed to compete with and against boys. Because not enough girls show interest in sports like wrestling and football, girls' leagues for those sports are very popular or wells known.

There are women in the military who grow up and are taught that men should respect women by belittling them and that women are the "weaker sex". Sadly, this is carried over into the adult world, where many women I knew used female biology to get out of watch (I wanted to kick them). I did my watch, I ran with the big dogs (until I got pregnant), I did the work that any male would do-- change an engine, change a tire, change the oil, etc, etc. I did it because it was expected of me and my mother enforced "If you want to play with the big dogs, BE a big dog."

By the way, one of my friends held a door open for a woman and she got in his face about holding the door open for her: "I'm not weak, I can get it!" She was holding four boxes in her hands and probably wold have lost one of them trying to open the door. My friend looked at her and said: "Your hands are full, I was just being polite. If you want to, I'll just let this heavy door slam in your face and laugh while you try to get it open without losing your stuff." Chivalry is not dead for EITHER sex. I hold doors open for men AND women and they hold doors open for me. I smile, say Thank you and hold the door open for the next person.

Women are demanding equal rights and I believe equal rights should start in school. Girls and boys should be allowed to compete against AND WITH one another. This way, it encourages the girls to be strong and the boys to be fair ("just because she's a girl doesn't mean you have to LET her win. Make her fight for it." "Just because you're a girl doesn't mean they're going to LET you win-- fight for it!").

If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.

*AREN'T very popular, dangit. Sorry.

Laura-759812 wrote "I say this because I knew a girl in the Army who ran all but 5 of the men-- she had a 13 minute 2 mile. Nearly impossible, but this woman was an athlete in school. If the girls can hold up to the men's standards, why not?"

You're joking, right? Compare male and female Olympic records, and you'll see that men sweep every single speed, strength and agility category.

While there are some women that are able to run quickly, they are unable to do so with the same amount of gear. How many women do you know that can do ten pushups or one pull-up? I agree that the Army should accept men and women on the same standards, but today, the physical standards for women are lower. Keep in mind that the average woman has the height and weight but lower risk-tolerance and strength of a 12 year-old boy. The only way for the Army to have the same standard for men and women is to lower it to accomodate women.

No, I'm not joking. She humped a friggin SAW. Do you know how much a SAW weighs?? Not only did she have the average 40lbs of gear, but she had the RADIO, the SAW and THE MED KIT. Easily 80LBS of gear-- and this girl came up to my chest-- and I was 4'11! That SOB weighs almost 17 pounds. Simple isometrics-- that is one HEAVY piece of machinery.

Bullcrap about that risk tolerance statement. It's not about the risks in the military-- it's about the mission. You go into the mission, no matter what it is(be it hard charging into a combat zone or just taking your vehicles up the road to the mechanic's), with a 'risk assessment' sheet filled out (Risk of rain, light. Risk of oily roads beacuse of rain, light. Risk of accident due to lack of sleep, light, etc, etc). When you sign up, most recruiters don't pull punches: "You WILL go to war if the situation calls for it. If you don't want that, walk away now."

Bring the standards up. Yeah that will piss off a lot of people, but it will ENSURE that the Army is the top of the class, cream of the crop, etc, etc.

Laura-759812 wrote "Bullcrap about that risk tolerance statement."

No, it's sex-based behavior. Some women approach the physical risk tolerance of men, but such women are few in number.

"Women are demanding equal rights and I believe equal rights should start in school"

Women have more rights than men in the US. I'll name a few :

1) Uncontested monopoly on every aspect of reproduction

2) "rape shield" laws that enable publicizing the accused before trial

3) Male genital mutilation is legal while any female genital mutilation is illegal.

Find me a single female-owned, female-managed construction company pf any size with a 100% female workforce.

Vincent's comment: "3) Male genital mutilation is legal while any female genital mutilation is illegal." Cesarean section. Hysterectomy. Tubal ligation. Episiotomy (also known as Perineotomy). (if a baby is too large or the woman isn't large enough, a cut is made to assist the baby through the vaginal opening. I can't post links because they are VERY graphic, but google the above terms) All of these are mutilation; the first two are actual sterilization. It's pretty mutilating to have your belly cut open-- as in MAJOR SURGERY (whereas the vasectomy just has a hole opened up and snipped, then sewn up-- no heart, stomach, intestines, kidneys, etc, etc involved)-- to have either the uterus removed or a baby removed from the uterus. Also, the VAST majority of hospitals will not support a COSMETIC hysterectomy BECAUSE there is major surgery involved. If a woman has cancer and the uterus needs to be removed or she'll die, then the hospital will do it.

When men evolve to have a uterus, ovaries, mammary glands, the estrogen level of a female and the bone structure to carry a fetus to term, THEN we'll discuss your bullet #1.

The Vine board needs a quick show of hands as to how many of us believe Laura has a problem understanding biological roles....

He was 35-4 and favored to win the tourney. His line of reasoning makes much more sense than yours.

No line of reasoning based on fairy tales makes sense. Sorry.

If he was all that, he should have quickly pinned her and bee done with it.

He was ranked 5th in the state.

Oh man, he would have kicked her butt.

xrx, So, you think it's a fairy tale that men should not exhibit violence toward women? That was his line of reasoning, whether based on faith or not.

@Chris: I think xrx is referring to the bible. I'd like to point out to him/her that Judaism deplores violence... Buddhism deplores violence... Wiccan deplores violence...

I still applaud this kid for standing up for what he believes in, even though he's going to be made fun of like WOW for this...

Guess xrx missed that this H.S. girl lost (badly) in her quarterfinal match against her next male opponent. Review: http://kaaltv.com/article/stories/S1980524.shtml?cat=10218

It's not lose-lose. Any male with even mediocre talent will beat a girl wrestling. I've wrestled a girl in high school. In about the same weight. Girls are not physiclly strong enough to compete with a guy. I bet those 20 wins she has were because the guys were trying not to hurt her. The girl I wrestled started crying right before I threw her down the last time and pinned her. (she was trying to stand up/escape)

and that makes you a loser who beats up on women.

What is inappropriate about it? They're wrestling, not filming a pornographic movie.

The other girl tapped out in seconds. Clearly, she was out of her league and should not have been there. Let's see how Herkelman does in her next match.

Better yet, let's see next year as to whether she is back again.

Re-review: http://kaaltv.com/article/stories/S1980524.shtml?cat=10218