Washington Post: It's easy to appreciate both Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan for their talents and their triumphs this time of year. It's harder to acknowledge the truth and just say it: If Kobe Bryant wins his fifth title in the next two weeks and wins two more before he retires, he has to be given the nod as the greatest individual talent ever to play in the NBA.
Article Source: NBC Sports
from:NBC SportsKobe vs. MJ argument is no longer heresy
Seeded on Mon May 31, 2010 2:03 AM EDT (NBC Sports)
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I'm gonna come right out and say it. Michael Jordan is the most overrated player in any sport. One of the all time greats to be sure, I'm not denying that. But all the people who go around saying he's the best ever as if there's no argument are just victims of the "I let Nike/ESPN do all my thinking for me" mentality that is so prevalent today. Magic Johnson did things Jordan never could, and if he wasn't forced to retire in the prime of his career he may have ended up with more rings than Michael. Russell had more rings and was every bit the competitor Jordan ever was. Kareem was better, longer than anyone else ever was. There are plenty of yardsticks to measure with, and Jordan isn't the clear-cut best in any of them. Great? Absolutely! Greatest ever? Please.
Does anyone besides me find it odd that so many Nike sponsored athletes get annointed as the "best ever" or "best today" without actually proving it? Jordan, Woods, LeBron? Woods hasn't surpassed Nicklaus. LeBron hasn't done a damn thing except appear in some really cool commercials, but you'd think these two guys are the greatest thing out there.
Sorry, man. Somebody's got to say it. The emperor has no clothes.
Jordan will always be Number 1
Very articulate. It must have taken you hours to distill your argument down to one phrase and state it so succinctly. Well put.
I have the utmost respect for Magic Johnson and what he accomplished as a player. However, your argument does not have merit when Magic himself has stated that "Mike is the best ever". Even one of Magic's best friends who is one of the 50 greatest players of all time (Isaiah Thomas) has stated that "even though Magic is one of the best players to ever put on some basketball shoes...Mike is on a whole other level!" Knowing their accomplishments, I am inclined to trust their judgement. In addition, the statistics are in Mike's favor. I won't add that he played against much better competition as well. Mike also played prior to the rule changes (no hand-checking) that weakened our players to where we are not dominant over the rest of the world.
I'm gonna say that MJ just got WAY more coverage than Julius Erving, and others. America was mesmerized, seeing such a high level of talent for the first time.
Now, it seems like a lot of people can do things that Jordan did. Baseball fans will tell you that Jackie Robinson was not the best black baseball player of his time, he just got the chance. MJ was the first to get his chance after Larry and Magic paved the media way.
Not to diss Michael, becuase he is awsome. He had a certain media machine that not one in the near future has had;
(1) Michael had the sole Nike behind him. There was no other athelete that Nike had on hand versus the diversification that Nike has now (Tiger woods....).
(2) Nike had a strangle hold on media and commericals. It was literally all or nothing. Where Magic and Bird were with Converse. And Converse was miserable on ads and promotions. Nike was the king and no other company was even close.
(3) Michael came out of no where. The story on Michael was very limited as he entered NBA. Versus LeBron, Kobe, Karem, Magic, Larry Bird, Julius... Michael was one of the player on the NC team! Michael was not the TEAM.
(4) Michael had zero competition within NBA, Magic had Bird, Julius was in ABA, Kobe has LeBron. It is definitely a case where ALL spotlights were on MICHAEL.
Finally, to be fair, MICHAEL delivered.
Kobe will never be better than mike. first off kobe was robin to shaq's batman, mike was never robin. secondly he played in a much more competitive league, he started winning championships while magic and bird were still playing, winning his first against magic. Micheal deserved all the endorsements he got from nike, he won rings, mvps and finals mvps. whereas now you can get endorsements without really proving anything
MJ vs Kobe per game Min FG% 3pt FT Off Def Rbs Ast Stl Blk TO
CAREER MJ
1,072
1,039
38.3
.497
.327
.835
1.60
4.70
6.20
5.3
2.35
.83
2.73
60
30.1
Career KB 1021 873 36.6 .455 .340 .838 1.20 4.10 5.30 4.7 1.59 .60 2.6
MJ by a mile
Thanks for clearing this up! Stats don't lie!!!
I think the both of you should learn to add and subtract. MJ is not winning by a mile, and stats don't always give you a clear pic. Case in point: show me the stat to measure killer instinct? heart? determination?
Compare the #'s side by side and do the math, then add 3 more years to Kobe's side. Then you guys can come back to the table, k? Most guys like yourself are too emotional when it comes to this issue, be rational, logical, and reasonable. They are very similar players, same "it" factor, no one can deny that Kobe is an killer, no one! You just have the insight to see all of Jordan's career, Kobe's is not thru yet! Please, spare me the Shaq argument, take Pip from Jordan, do you still have 6? Everyone needs help, including Jordan! Remember, the Jordan rules came into play because some one was doing a lot of crying & complaining! (Det, NY), Kobe states, "its playoff basketball" (denver series).
The mamba will strike again in '10!
Michael was the Chicago team. Kobe was part of the Lakers.
Michael in his earlier career had to score 50-60 points in order to win. Kobe did not have to. Kobe had to share, and expected to share the rock.
Chicago Bulls was built around Michael. Lakers was not built areound Kobe (until recent years).
Of course their # will be different. Their repective teams are different. The impressive part of Kobe is his maturation period... Too often we don't realize that we are dealing with a player that came straight out of high school. Look at LeBron! He has to shoulder the weight of the whole Cleveland on his shoulder. Not a small task...
Kobe can go to hell he will never be better than MJ period.
Hell.... I am the best ever......No one could guard me on the playground. I always got picked first, be it dodgeball, kickball, football......in other words all of this means nothing. I enjoyed watching MJ. I enjoy watching Kobe.....I was even thrilled watching Walt Frazier, Earl the Pearl, and most of all Doctor J.
Who cares who is crowned as best ever.....We all have the players we like most and number of rings, points and all that crap is just that.
Fan
This need to stop. Kobe is no MJ. Had MJ played the years he missed and if the GM had kept the team together for another 3 years, MJ would've gotten 10 rings (Without a center). I respect Kobe as a player and he's really good. But he no legend, just a copycat.
To say Jordan played "without a center" is a little misleading, don't you think? Bill Cartwright was a legitimate 7-footer who got it done in the paint. Good defender and could score when he had to. Luc Longley, not so much. But he was a big body in the middle, too. And remember, Shaq never got a ring before he played with Kobe, either. So all the "Kobe needed Shaq" comments are a bunch of hooey. EVERY player needs teammates. Jordan never got one without Pippen, either. And the first year of Jordan's exile to baseball's minor leagues, Pippen led the Bulls to the conference finals, which is further than they ever went without Pippen. Jordan was not the only reason that team won titles.
Probably the most pertinent point is, NONE of them won a title 'til they played for Phil Jackson.
"The rules when he played allowed the Knicks to maul him."
That says it all in my opinion. Kobe is great, don't get me wrong. But the rules are just so different now and Kobe has never faced the brutality of the old NBA. MJ did and still excelled. That sets them apart in my opinion. Unfortunately we'll never get to see how Kobe would have performed in such a league.
I think Kobe would have done just fine. It's about changing your game to fit the mold. Do you honestly think Kobe would have just curled up into a ball on the end of the bench and started crying? Absolutely not, he's a driven competitor just like Jordan.
For all of this talk about Persona, what about Jordan's Hall of Fame speech, where he was a complete @!$%# to everyone? What about his brutal divorce? His scandal of having women all over the country?
There is a difference between the KB championships and MJ championships. Shaq was far better player than KB during the first three championships. IMO, KB was part of a championship team, but he wasn't the best player during that time. Different from last year, where he outplayed every other player.
Compared that to MJ 6 championship and 6 final MVP awards. As soon as KB do that, then we can make a comparison. Until then, MJ still a better player.
If the Washington Post guy thinks that KB will be better based on how many championships have, then he thinks that Robert Horry is better than MJ and KB.
Kobe will ALWAYS be a better rapist!
I agree totally with this article. Kobe's problem is that he is not as well liked as MJ was. No matter what anyone says he broke two major rules a black man can never break. He was accused of the rape of a white woman, and he put another black mans business in the street.( a term that we use)If you listen to Ryan Stewart, he admits he hates Kobe for that reason. It is human nature to put ones personal feelings into a discussion. I personally think Kobe is the better player regardless, but I can't say anyone is wrong for arguing for MJ. Last point, if this debate comes down to titles. Don't you find it odd that Bill Russell is never in that discussion.
72-10
MJ never lost in the finals.
Defensive player of the year and MVP and Finals MVP in the same season.
How many MVP awards did Michael win?
He left basketball in his prime to play baseball.
MJ said it best when asked whether Kobe was on the same level, "It's not even close."
Anybody who saw Jordan play live in his prime knows that there is no comparison.
Kobe's just another self-centered, flawed character with a lot of talent.. like A-Rod...Kobe's a rapist, A-Rod a steroid cheater.
MJ by a mile in talent, by a light-year in character.
Only if he wins seven without counting his titles with Shaq.
I covered the Bulls for a radio station when Michael played. Does NOT make me an expert by any stretch of the imagination. And I'm not biased. I love watching Kobe play. But I'm in Jordan's camp on this one... as a player. As far as the reference to Jordan's commercial appeal v. Kobe's, Jordan destroyed his image/appeal (in my opinion) with his idiotic HOF induction speech. He proved what many of us have known for a long time: he's also the most ARROGANT athlete of this or any other generation. He made a complete @$$ of himself with that speech, and even before that, denigrated his legacy by not knowing when to walk away as a player. Couldn't stand not hearing the cheers. That's pure and simple ego gratification. Michael was never over-rated as a player. He's grossly over-rated as a human being. (BTW, thank God the article writer had the good sense not to include LeBron's name in the discussion.)
Neither Kobe nor Jordan are/will be the best ever. The best ever individual player was Wilt. NO ONE put up the numbers he did. NO ONE had rules put in place to keep him from dominating so much. To paraphrase Larry Holmes, neither Kobe nor Michael could carry Wilt's jockstrap.
Unfortunately, the best team player of all time was a stinking Celtic. Bill Russell won eleven titles in thirteen seasons, something Jordan did not do and would not have done. Kobe will never match that number.
I don't think anyone has performed more clutch shooting, buzzer beaters, from just about anywhere on the court, under such difficulty than Kobe. He is simply amazing= and a joy to watch!!!!
One of the points that is ofter missed in the Jordan / Kobe discussion is that fact that Kobe came after Jordan. One of the reasons he is often precieved as fake is the fact that he copied Jordans style of play. It is difficult to be considered the best when you copied / fashioned you game after someone esle. Ultimately what he has proven to be is a great copy of Michael Jordan, this does not deminish Kobe's greatness, but unfortunately dose not allow him to be considered greater than "His Airness"...
Hogwash.
Both are great players, neither is the best. If I was starting a team and could have anyone on my team, the first person I would look for is Magic.
I used to be a fan of bb, but not much anymore. The rules are terrible, a foul is a foul I could care less if Jesus himself was playing, call it. And I still do not know how Gausol ended up in LA for what amounts to belly lint and some paper clips. I will be shocked if Lebron is not in NY next year. This league, like MLB, thinks that to be interesting and get TV revenue, they need NY to compete, and how else to do so than with Lebron?
I agree with Indievote. Jordan is so overated , as an individual talent sure he is one of the greats but remember Jordan did not win anything until Phil Jackson was his coach and Scottie pippen don't forget about him. Magic johnson not only faced the best in history he won with every coach he got. Magic is by far the greatest that ever lived. I always laugh when people talk about Jordan like this. If you know basketball it is not about scoring it is about the whole game. That is why Lebron is a much better player than Kobe is. Kobe is the better finisher for now but Lebron does so much more than Kobe for his team. Just like Magic did everything for the Lakers.
I totally agree with you on Magic, but I have to disagree on the LeBron thing. I've never seen Kobe flat-out quit like LeBron, especially during the playoffs. LeBron may be physically more gifted than Kobe (size, bulk, younger) at this point, but he's not even close to Kobe as far as being a player. He's a front runner. He doesn't lead his team in the postseason like Kobe, and that's way more important than MVP trophies.
The things you people say! MJ "a light year" better in character?? Are you only 13 years old or something? Were you not around when Jordan punched out Steve Kerr in practice one day? Or when his gambling problems got so bad that he left basketball to "pursue" baseball (yeah, that always made a lot of sense)? Or when it came to light that he'd been cheating on his wife throughout their marriage? And some others here already brought up his eye-opening Hall of Fame speech. Jordan is a douchebag of the first realm! Character!? Give me a break. And as for Kobe "copying" Jordan, copied him how? Does that mean Jordan was a Dr. J copycat? Just because your style of play is similar doesn't make you a copycat. They both play the same position and are almost identical in size and ability. Wow, go figure that their games would resemble each other's.
Micheal Jordan benefits from being Nike's first "project". He is the best marketed player EVER! His peccadilloes and personal troubles were kept quiet by the league and Nike because they needed him and they had the money to make it happen. Had Jordan been chased down his driveway and into a fire hydrant by Juanita like Tiger was by Elin, his story would have ended a little differently. Michael Jordan is every bit the @!$%# Kobe is with a gambling addiction thrown in. So let's keep the topic on basketball here, shall we? If you think MJ is any better than Kobe character-wise, you are delusional.
Thank you and double thank you.
Jordan's shoe is still outselling Kobe's because of these tactics.
Kobe is, and always has been, a Jordan wannabee. Not happening though.
Jordan could not compete in the world of basketball in the days of Dr J and Oscar Robinson and probably not in the days of magic and Byrd. There were no hand fouls and the like and no three pointers. Drive under the basket and take you life in your hands. Kobe would have been dead after 5 seasons as injury prone as he is.
In my opinion Oscar was the best all around player to ever tie the laces. This man averaged a triple double for a year? How about Russell? Or Chamberlain? You see we always fall back on that ring thing. You play 82 games and then crown the champion in a potential 28? Thats a team thing. If you say Kobe is the greatest which to me is silly then Derrik Fisher is also since he also will have 5 rings if they win this year also.
That would be Oscar Robertson.
Michael never had the competition kobe had,Michael does not have the skill kobe has,go to youtube to check phil jackson,if kobe had to play against ehlo,kevin johnson etc he would have broken records,kobe is better clutch,kobe has won without shaq but mike never did without pippen,mike never scored 81,Mike in this era will be great but will not dominate,the players in those days looked soft not now
Jordan: 6 Championships, 6 Finals MVP Awards
Kobe: 4 Championships, 1 Finals MVP Award
Plus, what is this nonsense about MJ not playing against stiff competition? To my recollection, he played against Karl Malone and John Stockton, Charles Barkley and Kevin Johnson, Patrick Ewing and John Starks, Hakeen Olajuwon and Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Dominique Wilkins, Chris Mullins and more.
It's also been mentioned that the game was more physical in Jordan's era - true.
Scottie was a fantastic player, one of the great SF of all time. HOF player. But Scottie wasn't dominant in the paint, he was never finals MVP, he didn't bulldoze defenders and not only get away with it but draw a foul (which was why I could never really enjoy Shaq's play).
That being said, I think that there are too many great players from various eras to declare Jordan the absolute greatest ever. Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Magic Johnson could all be included in the conversation too. Kobe will too, in a couple of years.
This is the biggest mess I have ever read. MJ will always be the best there ever was, best there ever will be! Come on people, have you forgot the games? Have you forgotten the times he took over all by himself? Have you forgotten the flu game? The amazing in the air under the goal reverse layups? The switch hands move vs the Lakers in 91? The 3 Peat? The 3 Peat Repeat? The steal against Karl Molone and the amazing game winner for his 6th title? How about the love, admiration, and respect the world had for MJ? The kids wanting to be like Mike? Michael is iconic, he is absolute the best athlete this world has even known!! He even said during his hall of fame morning press conference, (which i was at) that there will never be another Michael Jordan! Let Kobe be Kobe people. Just please dont write stupid articles saying if he wins 2 more titles then he is better than the GOAT!! That is not a fact. Stats don't lie, MJ was better! Highlights don't lie, MJ was more AMAZING! Respect don't lie, Jordan was LOVED! And a true Love For The Game don't lie, MJ had it!! So I rest my case!
Indievote, please stop dickriding Kobe. Kobe is a player that I cherish in my basketball-loving heart for his ability to dominate and come up with clutch plays but Michael was 6/6 with 6 Finals MVPs, had better stats, had less talent on all of his championship teams, had more amazing and unreal moves, was a better defender, had more awards and honors across the board, was always clearly the best player in the league, was lauded by all of the greats as the G.O.A.T., and he had the ability to step his game up beyond what should have been possible. He was never beaten when it counted. Kobe has lost two finals series. Kobe does not have the amount of MVPs or even a Defensive Player of the Year to his credit. Michael was so good that the press gave the MVP to other players even in years when Mike clearly deserved it because they felt bad that he was so dominant. The NBA's Golden Age was the 80s and 90s and Michael was the King of that age. Phil Jackson even feels bad when he is asked who is better because he doesn't want to hurt Kobe's feelings when he hints to the press that Michael is the best. Anybody who says that Kobe is better does not have the stats to back it up and must not have watched enough Jordan film to realize that Mike was the greatest. Charles Barkley, Kenny Smith, Reggie Miller, Shaquille O'Neal, Magic Johnson, all of ESPN, TNT, and every other intelligent basketball mind will tell you that Michael is the Greatest and there is no argument to the contrary that is not based on the chronic dickriding of Kobe that has become so popular with people that only watch the players of today and do not look back. I do agree however that Michael is of questionable character but that does not detract from his greatness. He is not overrated and if Magic Johnson or any other Basketball mind heard that they would slap you for making such a blasphemous slur toward the great Game of Basketball.
TruthTeller23, lots of big talk there. Let's take it from the top......
First: If you go back and actually read what I've written, nowhere will you see me saying I believe Kobe is better than Michael. I never said that, and I don't believe that. I think once a player attains a certain level of play you can't say who's better because there are too many variables. Different times, different opponents, etc. Kobe is one of the all time greats, as is Michael. I don't think you can say definitively one is better than the other. Dickriding? As a teacher once told me, the illiterate often mistake profanity for eloquence. Just show me anything I wrote that would qualify as such.
Next up: the awards and accolades for Mr. Jordan. Again, if you read what was written you'll see that one of my biggest problems with any discussion of Jordan is that WAY too many people bought into the Nike/ESPN hype machine. LeBron got rookie of the year, even though he had a statistically inferior season to Carmelo Anthony and had to sit home and watch the playoffs while 'Melo led the perennial doormat Nuggets to the postseason. Gee, you don't think Nike/ESPN had anything to do with that, do you? When you're the media darling du jour you get a lot of awards. Big deal. No one ever had more money invested in him than Jordan. Do you think their desire to protect their investments might have colored their perception a little?
Third: Don't try to bolster your position by telling me who agrees with you while simultaneously casting aspersions on my intelligence. Just because those guys were great players doesn't mean they're great thinkers. They're entitled to their opinions just as I'm entitled to mine. I don't agree with them.
Fourth: Less talent on his championship teams? That is so far from the truth it doesn't even warrant going into any kind of detail. That is just plain ignorant. Pippen alone was every bit the force that Shaq was. Pippen took the Bulls to the conference finals without Michael. How did he do that with such an inferior cast?
And last but not least: What are you, a mindreader? You know what is going through Phil Jackson's mind when he's answering questions about Kobe v. Michael? Laughable statement.
Just for the record, I got Wilt Chamberlain's autograph after watching his Lakers beat my San Diego Rockets when I was ten years old. I've been watching the NBA since before you were born, I'd be willing to bet. I saw, in person, Bill Russel and his Celtics, Oscar Robertson, every iteration of the Lakers from West/Chamberlain/Goodrich/Baylor until the present, and every other team along the way. I've watched 'em all. I think the problem with you and me is, you're the one who hasn't been watching long enough. And on top of that, you're obviously a "herd" thinker. "If everyone's saying it, it MUST be true". Not interested.
Why don't you quit worshipping at the altar of MJ long enough to think for yourself? Dickrider, indeed.
I think I love you! I'm wish people would just keep the emotions out of the equation, and judge based off play on court. Whether you put Kobe over Mike, or vice versa, they are both great! Just because I choose Kobe, doesn't mean I don't like Mike. I put Mike at 1a, due to the era Kobe plays in, (2 guards/SF didn't look like Wade, Carmelo, Durant, Lebron,when Jordan was playing, they are more athletic today, and Jordan would not have guarded them). Today, Kobe's stats are very close to Jordan, also, he has more playing time to add to those stats!
Everyone has an opine, just let it be based off common sense, logic, and rational!
Lakers baby!