Always amazed how much controversy harmless creativity and new things scare the masses. Open minds mean open hearts!
Would it be "harmless creativity" for a couple from say, Australia, dress up in headdress and war paint and dance to "Native American tribal" music? Or for a couple from Norway to put on blackface, wear slave costumes & dance to "Dixie"?
The fact is that people who actually have ties to aboriginal culture say that their was nothing authentic about the music, steps and costume; what was presented was a caricature.
Accuracy is an important component of all the ice dancing phases, especially in the folk/country dance segment. That's why so many teams chose music and dances from their own countries; they know how to accurately present it.
While waiting for the results, I noticed that if the male dancer had put on some sunglasses, they would have been better off doing a tribute routine to Bono and Cyndi Lauper.
A bunch of subjective "experts" holding up numbers does not constitute a "winner", in my humble opinion.
I don't watch any sport which includes a panel of judges and numbers on a card. It all seems so silly.
And, the fact that this skating pair deemed it necessary to dress outrageously to win a medal is even more offensive than a judge holding up a number on a card.
It's amazing how this dance interpretation can stir some of us up. I consider whether or not it was meant to be cruel or offensive...or merely creative and fun. My sons would point out how offensive rap then hip hop was for many music aficionados...and for some, still is. Some day, this couple may be seen as front runners in how the event has changed.
A survey should be made targeting how many people accept innovation and change. I think it would be found to be a very small percentage. We are a puritanical, reactionary society and don't want to view or understand creativity.
It was mocking. It wouldn't have been offensive if it was a classy but slightly off portrayal. If you are going to portray an ethnic group outside yourself, do it accurately and classy...
What if American ice dancers came out with a bottle of Vodka and had the female dressed as a Russian prostitute? It would be offensive.
It's sickening how we cater to only SOME ethnic groups.
For those who find it offensive, please find and read/watch interviews with the pair.
They:
They come off as people who are sincerely interested in expanding creative horizons and showing that a "folk dance" isn't limited to Indo-European traditions -- the majority of the other dances came from Spain, Russia, Italy, etc.
Obviously as this is a dance performed on ice and one that has to meet certain judging criteria, it will not be 100% accurate.
The complaints that the routine was overly theatric and dramatic are the ones that make me scratch my head -- have the people complaining of this ever seen figuring skating??
"The fact is that people who actually have ties to aboriginal culture say that their was nothing authentic about the music, steps and costume; what was presented was a caricature."
The cowboy one was a caricature, too. But no one complains and to top it off, no one would CARE if anyone did. In the end, who cares?
Sure, but the difference is that cowboys haven't been systematically exterminated and forced onto reservations by Europeans all over the planet.
Anyone who is really interested in this should read the discussion here:
Aside from their inaccurate portrayal, the routine didn't score very well. Accepting change has nothing to do with it. And I'm fairly certain cowboys have never been enslaved or removed involuntarily from their lands.
And I'm fairly certain cowboys have never been enslaved or removed involuntarily from their lands.
I think you're forgetting about what happened when they were forced to go to Minnesota on 1-17-10. There are other examples. ;)
How many people posting to ice dancing are going to get this referEnce? I do but mostly because I live here and I'm a total sports nut.
That baggy, red diaper turned my stomach the entire time. You want to talk about offensive? THAT was offensive.
Good on you people for actually pissing on the Aboriginal culture. So funny those of you not taking issue or thinking who cares really do not get the importance of culture. Australians dressed up as black faces for a comedy show in the US they were savaged for it because Black Faces is not a white cultural thing and deemed offensive, even though that type of culture is NOT in Australia. Australians did not understand yet they were attacked profusely for it. The costumes looked like they belonged in a Tarzan movie, and even in Aboriginal culture if something is going to be shown on TV of them they issue warnings prior to viewing as the images or showing of the dead is not acceptable, so programs issue warnings dead images meaning a simple photo of someone who did die, would be displayed. This just looked so dumb, the ice dancing performance and display. Insulting in my opinion.
Aboriginal culture is sacred to them it is represented of them, their way, their life, why not have white people then dress up as African tribal people and let them ice dance and whatever to that. It would look stupid and horrible to me because they are not African tribal people.
Cultures are important for society and for people that are not of that culture that are trying to imitate it for whatever reasons are actually insulting it and making it look a joke. Why is is really hard for people to grasp there are certain cultures that are sacred. How about if we have Non-Native American Indian people, say Swedish people with the blond hair and blue eyes dressing up as Native Americans and dancing like them. It would look stupid and be insulting.
This is all these people have left, and for some it is their livelihood not to mention the only ways to can make money. It is called respect, obviously that is really lacking badly in this world now.
It was art, maybe not good art but just the same it was art. Today every freaking culture seeks out something about anything that is said or done to find offense. Get over it. The only people really hurt by the poor art in this case were the skaters theselves. Anyone else that was offended could turn off the TV on leave the venue. No this whole mess was just a Sharptonisk means of drawing attention to some group or groups that feel the need for media outlet to get the 5 minutes of fame. What a crock
(I got the sports reference regarding cowboys right off the bat. I'm not a "total sports fan" and I live on the West Coast. It wasn't that subtle of a reference, at least if your IQ is above about 85. So you're right Bailey, most people on here probably didn't get it...)
If some Australian ice dancers would have performed in "black face" or something like that, they would have been crucified on the spot. That would be appropriate. These Russian jokers are getting criticized and laughed at, and that is also the appropriate response, IMO. You don't execute a non-violent thief, and you don't send a shoplifter to prison. A black face routine is specifically designed to mock an ethnic group and is worse than simply performing an inauthentic and overly simplistic ethnic routine with pathetic bad costumes. The latter shouldn't simply be given a pass, but they shouldn't be crucified for a relatively minor offense, either.
I don't really think the routine qualified as offensive, but that fact alone doesn't make it appropriate or good.
So black ice dancers should not dance to Beethoven? Asian dancers should not use music that is "soulful". . .I always heard that imitation is the best form of flattery??? You would think that if someone was attempting to dance to aboriginal music the people would be thankful that they were being acknowledged for their artistic impression they have left on the landscape of humanity. . .but oh no we have to boil it down to race and ethnicity yet again! When will mankind move past such trivial things????
Jeff-393477--
Do you know what tribes are? Your comparisons are not even comparisons. There is a difference between music genres and cultural tribes.
Native American Tribes
African Tribes
Aboriginal Tribes
you are trying to compare those sacred cultures and people to hip hop music and classical music?
Do people not really get things here?
"sacred" is a highly subjective term. Just because something is traditional does not automatically mean it is considered sacred. In this case, I imagine the reason for the music or dance would play an important role.
Sorry forgot the Maori tribes, the Eskimo and Haida tribes, the tribes in Central and South America, and other tribes around the world.
Tribes are a certain entity, a certain belief, lifestyle, livelihood, etc that they have their sets of rules and cultures and frankly it should be respected.
Maoris of New Zealand perform something called a Haka. Really awesome to watch it is the traditional warrior/war dance of males in the tribes, though now females and kids perform it and it is not just a war dance but still it is symbolic of their tribes. They perform Hakas at sporting events, and other events to show off their culture. Common tradition at say Rugby matches, say we have the New Zealand team against the Australian time in Rugby. The New Zealand team which is composed of some Maoris and white players perform a Haka as a face off against the Australians, after the national Anthem but prior to beginning the game. The white people on the team were given permission to perform the Haka by Maori tribe people. The Australian players are only allowed to stand there and watch the Haka performance they cannot make fun of it, ridicule it, or say anything and they cannot perform a Haka either because it is not of their culture. That is a show and sign of respect, as the Haka is sacred to the Maoris that perform it. If someone not of those groups tries to do it without permission and true understanding it is insulting.
Tribes have certain traditions within their culture, it is what is sacred to them. The same instance of when Mike Tyson was ripped apart by Maoris for getting his face tattooed like them with the Ta Moko, which is part of their tradition and culture. Tyson got it done because he thought it was cool, even though he looks stupid, but he lacked any understanding whatsoever of the reasons behind it and what it meant to the Maori culture and also by the fact he is not even Maori.
It also used to be with Aborigines the females were not permitted to play the didgeridoo, or even touch one as tradition says they would be infertile. However, as I was buying my didgeridoos and I would ONLY buy them from Aborigines or part Aborigine or by Aborigines that painted them, I asked about this as I did not want to offend their culture. I was informed that some tribes women are allowed to play them but men cannot watch. Also women are still not permitted to play them in ceremonies or for performance but they can in privacy. The Aboriginal gentleman was very appreciate of my respect for their traditions and my respect of their culture and understanding and I am glad he did correct some of the information I knew.
Also remember in Australia as well as the US people not of those cultures (Aboriginal or Native American Indian) even need permission to walk or enter their reservations.
The only time I find it NOT insulting or offensive is when elders grant permission to a person not of said Tribe to take part in whatever activity or tradition is part of their tribal culture. So this using other tribal cultures and practices without understanding, without permission, without respect etc is helping to kill tribal cultures, which is a huge mistake and very wrong.
DaveB001--
So you see white people walking around everyday dressed up as Aboriginals in the loin cloth and white paint? Is that not sacred to their culture? It is how they mainly dress for ceremonial purposes that I have seen which are sacred ceremonies to their culture.
By the way sacred for you:
Holiness, or sanctity, is in general the state of being holy (perceived by religious individuals as associated with the divine) or sacred (considered worthy of spiritual respect or devotion; or inspiring awe or reverence among believers in a given set of spiritual ideas).
Ergo it is SACRED as tribes have their sacred ways which are spiritual and for the Aborigines, which do not worship a god god in the monotheistic sense of the word, they worship their tradition called the Dreamtime, which is the beginning of their culture, traditions, etc.
So you see white people walking around everyday dressed up as Aboriginals in the loin cloth and white paint?
Your question has nothing to do with my comment.
Is that not sacred to their culture? It is how they mainly dress for ceremonial purposes that I have seen which are sacred ceremonies to their culture.
It very well could be sacred. I never said it wasn't.
Ergo it is SACRED as tribes have their sacred ways which are spiritual and for the Aborigines, which do not worship a god god in the monotheistic sense of the word, they worship their tradition called the Dreamtime, which is the beginning of their culture, traditions, etc.
If it involves their spiritual views, then they no doubt consider it saced. However, I remind you that my comment never argued this point. I stated:
"sacred" is a highly subjective term. Just because something is traditional does not automatically mean it is considered sacred. In this case, I imagine the reason for the music or dance would play an important role.
In other words, just because something is associated with a "tribe" does not automatically make it "sacred", which what you seemed to be implying in post #1.19. People in tribes also sometimes do some things, including dancing, just for fun. I know of no tribe that considers everything they do to be sacred. Quite frankly, I don't know enough about them to make such a determination. Again, I was simply pointing out that there is no reason to assume that everything in their culture is somehow "sacred" simply because they are a tribe.
Relax. Not every comment on Newsvine is intended as an attack or insult. (OK, 95% of them are... but my comment was not intended to be one of them.)
DaveB001--
Explain to me given how I even put up a definition for sacred and the reasons for something being sacred explain then to be how on earth sacred is then a subjective word for certain things? Explain to me how what the Aboriginals does is NOT sacred? I am explaining to you since I have been in Australia for a long period of time, and it is not hard to even do research. Their ceremonies are sacred and thus the dances and the attire are sacred. Sacred as I showed you does NOT mean religious in the sense of God or a monotheism, sacred also means spiritual.
Your comment is simply saying sacred is a subjective term, how could someone NOT say it was sacred if for them it is sacred? For someone to deny it is sacred or to say oh it is a subjective term and only sacred to them is actually dishonoring not to mention disrespecting their culture.
If you can name me a tribe that will dance and goof off like you find in clubs and pubs, where what they do has no meaning no importance at all go for it. Tribes almost everything they do whether it is tattooing, Hakas, chants, dances, song, costume, ceremonies, etc are for a traditional spiritual purpose paying honor or homage to something or having a very significant meaning behind it. Totem poles all have a particular meaning. The Moko tattoos on Maoris all have a significant meaning not just there for show and whatever frivolous reason.
Same with the scarring in African tribes they all have meaning. That is usually one thing regarding tribes that is of value, their traditions and ways usually are for a certain purpose and meaning and reason.
I might as well say a graveyard is not sacred after all sacred is a subjective term.
Explain to me given how I even put up a definition for sacred and the reasons for something being sacred explain then to be how on earth sacred is then a subjective word for certain things? Explain to me how what the Aboriginals does is NOT sacred?
Sigh. As I've already indicated, if they consider it sacred, then fair enough. I never claimed any specific thing they might do is NOT sacred. You keep reading into my comments. Please don't do that.
Your comment is simply saying sacred is a subjective term, how could someone NOT say it was sacred if for them it is sacred?
Yes, I know.
For someone to deny it is sacred or to say oh it is a subjective term and only sacred to them is actually dishonoring not to mention disrespecting their culture.
Wrong. I am not dishonoring or disrespecting anyone with my comment. You need to relax and stop throwing stones. My point is that no one, including you, has any business deciding what is sacred to a particular group to which they do not belong. It depends on what THEY believe. If they believe it is sacred, wonderful. If they don't, I really don't care. But to for anyone else to assume that everything a "tribe" does is sacred to them is of no value. It only matters if they believe it, not you. It's up to them. THAT is my point. No more caffeine for you.
Opening ceremonies is all recent Olympics have paid tribute to the aboriginal peoples of the host country, striving to do so in an authentic manner. This routine was a farce and as offensive as if they had performed in black face.
#2 - Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:23 AM ESTExactly. Respect is deserved if you are going to portray another group.
I did not feel this was particularly offensive, but I don't think the routine displayed them to their best advantage. It felt a bit too cutesy and gimmicky. It would have been fine for an ice show, but not for a competition.
#3 - Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:35 AM ESTAgree completely: I voted similarly and included almost the exact same comment. This was boring and technically not good to deserve the score they got................can we believe that the scorers know what they are doing after this?
Well, maybe the costume was supposed to direct attention to the costumes and not the skating?
But I don't know, I didn't watch, but this ploy seemed to have worked.
These 3 comments are some of the best on this subject. Greg may have it right on the distraction factor, as I did watch, but wasnt very impressed. As for how well their ploy worked though....... others scores were much higher, and the only reason the Russians are in third place was a good score from their earlier performance.
I will say I must agree with others that it looked like the pair were having alot of fun, but in the Olympics I want to see the beauty and skill to go along with having fun. This routine didnt have it.
As for the poll I didnt vote, as none of the choices worked for me. I didnt find it offensive, but the cheapness of the costumes eliminates any chance to say it was creative.
The routine portrayed stereotypes. In addition, it really was not that good! It was strange and mimicking. It reminded me of how American Indians were portrayed years ago in the movies.
#4 - Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:45 AM ESTWe are in serious trouble if we cannot laugh at ourselves once in a while. The performance was performed in a light hearted manner and there was no mal intent to insult or harm other cultures. I did not see the stereotyping myself. PS: Let he who is not guilty throw the first stone.
#5 - Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:59 AM ESTLet he who is not guilty throw the first stone.
So...anything goes based on that. I didn't watch, so can't comment on whether I personally perceived it as offensive. But even if I don't percieve it so, doesn't mean that it isn't to someone or group. I don't see why anyone ever defends stuff like this...as if their own personal liberty was at stake. We can laugh at ourselves, but that's usually not what we're talking about in these cases...it's the laughing at someone else's expense that becomes the problem. The venue is all so important. Art and "satire" get a lot of leeway, but they are not above scrutiny...especially if cheap shock value is the goal. I gotta see this later on.
Oh I agree laughing helps, and their routine most certainly was laughable. Considering it had previously gotten a poor reception I question their or their coach's decision making skills in going ahead with the routine at all. If they didn't have anything better than that...well perhaps they were in the wrong arena.
And quoting boarderline apocypha to defend an ice dancing routine is quite heavy handed. I agree with the intentions of that parable even if the source is questionable, but to scale it down to this degree is just silly.
PS. Loved the nose kissing they added at the end, very authentic and necessary.
I laughed at the skaters and their ignorance.
It wouldn't have been bad if it were a better routine that was off by mistake. This was cheesy and all old, dated stereotype.
Robert, are you a member of an original tribe in Canada? You said "we"..as if you are a tribal member..
Don't include me in your "why can't we laugh at ourselves" theory. I didn't laugh about it because I thought it was ridiculous and demeaning. And the costumes sucked.
Where do we think rock and roll came from? It came from African natives, their dances and their music. These skaters are simply borrowing from another culture. With that in mind, I think they should have pushed the envelope more.
But those dumb smiles! I understand enjoying one's self, but I think they could have had a little more facial expression. (Of course this nitpicking is from someone who doesn't even step on ice.) I did enjoy some of their moves, and the precision skating. Admittedly, the costumes were kitschy.
For those who are offended, try to picture the skaters in flowing black outfits skating to Bach. Then make your call. Otherwise, I think all the Olympic athletes deserve all the praise they get. They didn't get there by sitting at home on the couch just watching tv.
#7 - Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:19 AM ESTAs a routine, it was kitchy, good, but not up to their usual performance abilities. As to the Aboriginal issue, I think they would have done a better portrail whether light-hearted or serious if they had collaborated with Aboriginal People and not tried to kiss up to the First Nation. Two different cultures!
#8 - Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:27 AM ESTI did not like the "aboriginal" dance. Want not do a Russian folk routine? Potential for great costumes. Always make fun of and laugh at your own and not others. Routine did not seem up to their ususal difficulty or strength.
#9 - Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:42 AM ESTI enjoyed the routine a lot. To me, it looked more like a Stars On Ice entertainment routine than an Olympics competition routine, but it was fun to watch and their performance brought a smile. They are amazing skaters. The costumes were sort of junky, funny looking instead of the normal- clever or beautiful tradition. It is a shame that some Aboriginal People were offended because I am sure that no harm was ever intended.
#10 - Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:48 AM ESTDid not even seem to be in the same class as other skaters last night; costumes looked like something out of a 3rd grade play. Having consulted some Aboriginal people for insight this could have changed future of ice dancing competitions, as it was, it just distracted from this one. Not up to the usual high standards.
#12 - Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:01 AM ESTHonestly, their routing looked like a couple of 7 year children learning how to skate for the first time. I enjoyed watching the French pair.
#14 - Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:21 AM ESTWhat was offensive, was the scoring seemed to be lopsided in favored the Russians. The Italians were much better. But scored lower than Russians.
#15 - Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:27 AM ESTHoping it would be like the 'Bollywood' couple...lots of enegy, hoped for more creativity. Nothing offensive, looked like they were having fun.
#16 - Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:29 AM ESTFantastic performance - Creative - Original - If you watch ice dancing, your mind should be open enough to appreciate there performance. For someone watching for the first time, I can understand the 'wow, that was different feeling' - The problem with our world, is we don't take the time to understand a different culture. If we don't understand something, we knock it. This has to change. Like it for what it is.
#17 - Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:34 AM ESTThe irony of this post is so heavy it's palpable. I can only assume you were aware of this intended the post to have comedic value.
"The problem with our world, is we don't take the time to understand a different culture. If we don't understand something, we knock it. This has to change."
Priceless.
Radart, take a dose of your own advice, theirs was really not authentic or understanding of the 'different culture' or they would have known it wasn't done correctly. Women were never allowed to wear red and neither would either male or female ever have behaved so silly in a real aboriginal dance. While their dancing technique may have been extra ordinary, their judgement was not. How many of you have ever sat and been priviledged to experience a real Aboriginal performance? I have. It's very mystical and otherworldly. Not silly and laughable.
Original does not equal creative. And creative does not equal good. Their routine may have been creative - I cannot imagine anyone thinking it was a good choice - but it was hardly good. As an ice dancing routine, it was disjointed and had no flow, no grace. There was a lot of nonsensical and cartoonish shaking and moving about, but not a lot of "dancing". It was more cheap mocking than tribute to any culture, and amateurish at best. And their scores were much better than they deserved.
I agree. This lacked the both the technical and artistic qualities expected of an Olympic performance. They certainly did not deserve to be ahead of several other couples, who gave much better performances.
Very creative! They were great.
I didn't get the "Boollywood" dance. The costumes were so wrong, and the dance moves too. Indians could feel offended.
#18 - Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:37 AM ESTI'm native Canadian ...Mohawk Nation, and I was deeply offended by this cartoon on ice.
#19 - Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:37 AM ESTReminds me of the Marie Osmond - baby doll routine on Dancing With The Stars. Cute, creative but no content worthy of winning.
#20 - Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:42 AM ESTI think it was well intended but we all know what road that paves. I thought the dance looked silly and amateur. They did not deserve that score for that dance. Usually they are quite good but not last night. I was bored the whole time.
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Watch out for old man convention! This was creative and refreshing. Leave it alone.