Hey, wtf?! Why did the VERY first comment turn this thing to race. What the hell kind of thing is that to say Alfons? I'm white and I'm gonna go ahead and call YOU out on the racist card. Sheesh, gimme a break. Soon, next comment you'll be spouting about Pres. Obama and ACORN. Unbelievable.Go troll a political board troll. Preferably a FoxNews board.

i think alfons is simply saying that a lot of people are already pulling the race card which is bull. ive already heard people on msnbc say the call was bogus. first of all they are not tennis experts and did not know that the point violation came on match point and second of all they were not there to confirm or deny the foot fault. it does happen. even at majors. serena simply needed to keep her cool and serve the ball to clijsters (who played a phenomenal match and would have probably won anyway) which she clearly didn't. not only that but in typical williams fashion she did not give clijsters any credit after the match was over. real class for a so called role model

I disagree. Read his comments again, thoroughly this time. what you issed is the fact that he isn't talking about OTHER people, he is talking about her. Case closed.

To address your second point, plz see my comment 4.1 below. The call was much like being called for some minor holding call in the last 30 seconds of a playoff game in Hockey. It simply isn't done for the obvious reason that most folks want to see the result of the friggin 3 hours they just spent at that darned arena (paying 10 bucks for a hot dog) determindd by the sportsmen/women not by the linbe judge, referee, umpire, or what have you.

Dear Bill,

The first SENTENCE was written with sarcasm. The second one was not and he meant it seriously.

How did you determine that I know nothing about tennis? Please thrill me with your acumen.

Also, how did you determine NAMBLA was the best place for me?

if those calls just aren't done then teams are being cheated. i don't care how many tics are left on a clock or if it is an individual sport. rules are rules and they must be followed. and as a personal huge tennis fan it was dissapointing to see it end that way, but i think if i was there i would have got my moneys worth for that show serena put on in the end

Alfons, the only racism I see here is YOURS!!!

I watched and recorded it. I could not believe how unprofessional and spoiled brat her behavior was. She seems to think that because she usually always wins, that she deserved to win and be treated royally.

Sad but true, she may use the "race-card".

Alfons, You are an idiot. Only racists and Inter-minorics say supid comments like that. Ridiculous. Serena wasn't raised to think that way. She will take this incident with grace and humility, as she always has.

"..grace and humility, as she always has." Monique, you've obviously not followed her career, because anyone who has would never attach those words to her. She's an outstanding player, one of the best ever, but "humble" she ain't.

just the racist side of the sport I refer to in my comment. The line judge Bill, and alfons are probably neighbors. or at least shop at the same sheet shop.

Not as long as it took you to exhibit yours.

thank you philip for taking care of that monique comment for me. all these casual "fans" are going to be the ones to blow this up and make it seem like it was a bad call. no one can say for sure and the line judge was not out to get anyone. grace and humility. grace? those are good for a chuckle though.

Yelling and lack of control is in in the US alfons. Elected officials can not even contol themselves how do you expect young athletes to do so. I have a feelign you will defend one form of lack of control but not the other.

Tantrums have nothing to do with race - ask John McEnroe. Bet nobody walks around saying that because he threw so many tantrums he wants to play the race card....absurd. Hopefully, unlike John McEnroe, she will learn a lesson - keep your call, or at least stop gesturing with your racket. Regardless of what was said- she looked pretty threatening.

Foot fault call was absurd, so marginal it was bad. I would have threatened to buy the lines woman glasses but as she was Asian I am afraid that people would accuse me of referring to her race when I would be referring to her perception.

What about when Leighton Hewitt accused one Black linesman of racism when he played James Blake. The linesman was removed, yet I think they should have changed all the white linesman too, as James Blake had a similar case and could accuse them of being racially biased - except he isn't like that. That is playing the race card...against someone of colour too...incredible what you can get away with...

So if you want to look at race here, that is absurd. The standard for bad behaviour lies with the individual not race.

FYI Martina Navritalova noted in commentary a few years back how strange it was to have an all American crowd not support the Williams sisters on their way to the final, they would support foreign players. Strange that. One standard for patriotic loyalty that does not apply to some Americans? McEnroe was the worst sports person ever, and Americans loved him.

Why would she claim this?

Because she was trying to explain why an American crowd was cheering for foreigners instead of their own and if the footage clearly shows the crowd favouring the opposition. Why would such a patriotic crowd not want the William's sisters to make the final? Weird isn't it? I remember watching and thinking how wierd? Americans love to win, and they love to support their own...this was a few years back.

Everyone needs to lay off Alfons. It is well documented that the Williams clan has used the race card to deflect negative attention away from their misdeeds.

Case in point: When Venus pulled out of a Friday semi-final with sister Serena (30 minutes before the match, claiming injury), and was soundly booed when she and her father showed up to the final, her father Richard tried to deflect the criticism and the fallout by claiming racism (fans were calling them the N word). Yeah, right. I was sitting right in front of them for that match adn heard nothing racist AT ALL. If anyone had, the boos would have turned into support for Venus.

Secondly, when the sisters were sued by a promotion company for pulling out of an exhibition series after they had committed and the promotion company had sent millions of dollars, William once again claimed racism for some crazy reason.

When Venus and Irina Spirlea bumped during a change over during the US Open, Richard called Spirlea a "big, White turkey." yet claimed racism. I guess if two white girls shouldered each other, nobody would have said anything.

And on and on....... The Williams' have consistently played the race card.

No. She didn't deserve a point deduction. McEnroe behaved ten times as badly on a regular basis. Flipping out once in a while proves that's she a very human, albeit very talented athlete. A warning should have sufficed.

The rules were changed BECAUSE of McEnroe. And Mac has been defaulted from matches for his behavior as well.

Case in point: When Venus pulled out of a Friday semi-final with sister Serena (30 minutes before the match, claiming injury), and was soundly booed when she and her father showed up to the final, her father Richard tried to deflect the criticism and the fallout by claiming racism (fans were calling them the N word). Yeah, right. I was sitting right in front of them for that match adn heard nothing racist AT ALL. If anyone had, the boos would have turned into support for Venus.

Let me get this straight, when a player is injured, and they default a match they should get booed for turning up to support family????? Who the hell boos a player that is injured? What reasoning do you suppose they booed? Rafael Nadal was injured recently and walked around looking okay - was he booed too? I do not get how it is okay to boo a player who is injured because why again? For the record, Venus knee injury is legendary and is well documented...don't tell me she just faked it to...errr do what exactly...not collect her money? not risk bigger injury? preserve her career? Seriously tell me why she was booed again? You see one of them was going to win and carry on to the final so who were they screwing over again? Seems strange to boo an injured athlete - doesn't it?

I find the venom interesting here. I have also sat in stands where rude and racist comments are directed at teams and players. It happens. Just because it did not happen in your seats, does not mean it does not happen. One time I could not get my usual seats to a game and ended up in the cheap seats, OMG I felt like I had been transported to hillbilly hell. The crap that came out of the mouths of people calling players monkeys and apes and boy...I must say I now avoid those seats.

The Williams father is crazy, there is no doubt but no one judges Mary Pierce by her crazy dad or the Australian Dokovitch?by her crazy dad...and he is seriously demented and he claims all sorts of international conspiracies.

I have yet to see the race card being played by the Williams in this situation. Show me where the race card has been played here. Seems the only people preoccupied with race are not the people of race...

However I have actually heard a sports commentator claim Serena was one step up from apes. Although forced to apologise he cannot for the life of him understand why that would be considered racist. Guess he has no knowledge of how Blacks were historically referred to as being closer to apes than man. So if the Williams hear the racism directed at them and you don't that does not mean it does not happen. I have personally heard it and read it. If a tree falls in the woods and all that. You may have sat in front of them but you did not escort them around that arena now did you? The fact that they would boo an injured player speaks volumes, the fact that some in the crowd some may have issued racist taunts is not that unbelievable...now is it? Unless you truly believe that racism does not exist anywhere in any sporting arena.

Williams cannot speak for everyone and suggest the whole crowd was racist, but you should not speak for the entire crowd and suggest that everyone was not. Equally simplistic statements could not possibly be true. People do not like overt racism, but much racism is not overt. Ask yourself the last time you booed and injured athlete and why you felt it necessary to show or accuse them vocally of something so untoward as being injured. All teams carry injured players till the last minute hoping they will be fit, but as the final decision time comes, one has to do the right thing. Defaulting 30 minutes prior to a game means nothing..it simply shows a hope and willingness to play against the odds.

Watch an English soccer match one day - we all like to bleat racism does not exist, until you see it for yourself and remove yourself from ear shot because it is so disgusting to hear. Problem is that out of range you have no idea how much of it there is.

I also hear the Black racing car driver was subject to horrendous racial abuse, well documented by objective media. Let us not bury our heads in the sand. Some idiots are racist and taint the apple cart, sometimes when it is directed at you you get cynical. I like to believe that people who do not believe racism is ever an issue, believe it because they exclude it from their lives and in doing so condemn it. Problem is they cannot speak for a room of 30 strangers let alone a stadium of them.

blah blah blah, Serena's the hightest paid sociopathic female thug in sports. She follows the examples of other sports stars in the US unfortunately instead of other tennis players from around the world who are for the most part well-behaved and good sports. And yes the poor girls from Compton trying to make their way thing has been done to death. There are legitimate reasons to not be a fan of Serena besides of her skin tone

I agree wholeheartedly;

It could be that is the number one reason why most Americans like myself cheered Clijsters on was due to the fact that they, nor I, could not tolerate Serena's attitude, a poor one at that

We all love a great winner, and Clijsters proved just that. good family entertainment.

It's not much fun and is hard to watch a competitor lwho only thinks about themself and has not one ounce of integrity to commend that the other player played better....Serena has never given the graces of that to anyone, to my knowledge

and it was even sadder that the moment of joy for Clijsters or anyone for that matter would be muddled up by such distastful actions

it had nothing to do with race, creed color whatever. just a bad attitude mucking up a great talent....

Seems you have an issue with racism bringing that up.

Obama won. Get over it and stay on topic.

I could not have said it any better. Bad call by the line judge, no doubt. Would you or I had stayed "cool" in such a situation? Who knows! Sure, Serena was getting beat, and that bad call by the judge obviously took her to the boiling point. Where does Serena go from here? She'll grow from this experience and will continue to be at the top of her game. Shot-out to both Venus and Serena. They will forever be champions.

Sic..."Would you or I 'have' stayed cool..."?

Bad call by the line judge, no doubt

look closer at the tapes, she stepped on the line during the serve...hard to miss.

Chasencash, I call bull@!$%# on many of your points. Jeeze. Where do I begin?

The reason Venus and her father were booed is because up to that point they had a history of pulling out of matches when they had to play each other or if they were on the same side of the draw in big tourneys. They usually played opposite schedules so they were never in the same tourney together except for the majors and a handful of others (the PS tourney and the Lipton a the time were two of them). There was speculation during the tournament that Richard would have one of them pull out once they were placed on the same side of the draw. They didn't pull out when the draw had been announced AS THEY HAD DONE COUNTLESS TIMES BEFORE THIS INSTANCE. Therefore, when they were to meet in the semi, there was speculation that one of them would pull out. It was even reported and speculated on the news and Sports Center, for Christsakes! When Venus pulled out of the match 30 minutes before the start, stranding all the paying tickets holders, many of whom had driven hours from LA to get there, there were a lot of angry fans. Instead of watching a Williams sisters match, spectators were treated to two junior players who were pulled from the stands. This was on a Friday. The Lipton started three days later on a Monday. Venus played her first match at the Lipton and showed no signs of an injury. In fact, she went on that win that major tourney without the hint of an injury. That is why they were booed, not because they were Black, as you imply. Do your homework (of buy a clue) before you spout off.

I don't know what kind of sporting events you go to, or where you go to them, but I have rarely heard and type of racial slurs being thrown at players. When there have been even perceived racial slurs ("Damn, that boy can run"), all hell breaks out. So Hillbilly hell? That sounds racist to me.

Pierce and (I assume you meant Serbian who moved to Australia) Dokic, both disavowed their fathers and are still currently estranged from their crazy fathers. They did not consistently defend their fathers' actions and word. Had they, they too would certainly been judged along with their fathers. Actually, Jelena did defend her father early on, and she too received much negative press and fan backlash. Another of your points down the drain.

The race card hasn't been played by the Williams'....yet. Perhaps they have learned their lessons from all the fallout for all the other times they played the race card.

Please, Please, PLEASE tell me the name of this supposed sports caster who referred to Serena as one step up from apes. PLEASE, I BEG YOU!!! Well known big names have been FIRED for much less, even when their perceived slights were nothing more than colorful commentary (Howard Cossell as a case in point). Do you know how many commentators, sports casters, coaches, etc. have been FIRED for far less that saying a Black player is one step away from being an ape? Countless. So this guy only had to apologize, huh? Curious. Once again, I call BS! And no, I did not escort them into to stadium, but I'm glad you brought that up. Susan Hawksby did escort them into the stadium and seated them. In the inquisition that was done after this incident, she testified that she didn't hear ANY racially motivated cat calls. As I said, I was right in front of them for the entire match and heard not a word of Racial bias, which Richard claimed continued throughout the match. Maybe we just live in different worlds, wherein yours, if anyone Black is criticized in any manner, it is considered racism, for I can tell you without a doubt, if at a sporting even in this town, if ANONE used a racial slur, there would be rioting in the stands.

Your next paragraph has already been addressed. No, I have never booed an injured player, unless that injured player has used the same excuse repeatedly (as had the Williams' up to that point). The same goes for Jankovic and some of the others. They are getting booed at events for consistently calling out the trainers or taking bathroom breaks. These players are getting booed as well. I guess if they were Black, you'd site racism.

Yes, racism does still exist. But your examples have nothing to do with the incident I was referring to. NOBODY that was interview from the Indian Wells incident heard ANY racial slurs. So I guess everyone else could have missed it, and Richard Williams - and you apparently - are the only ones that can pick up such things with your supersonic hearing.

If you want to infer racism when you hear something, that's your problem. Many people hear racism where none exists. I know a tennis coach that has had to stop calling Black male children "boys" (that boy can hit a big forehand) because he was accused of being a racist. Very sad.

racism had nothing to do with it.  Quit being so white!!

I guess you are saying : You Lie!!!!! Nice....

Sportscaster = Tony Veitch when Serena was at the Australian Open. He was not fired, he apologised but said he did not think he had been racist. There was no censure- except he had to issue an apology. He was a NZ tv sports commentator who talked about it on sports radio and it was repeated during commentary surrounding the Australian Open. News also reached UK websites.

I hope you are as animated in your apology as you were when begging.

As for the event you are talking about I usually only follow the majors and a couple of big events in Europe so the booing I referred to was about those matches. I was not at Indian Wells and my assumptions of booing was based on other incidences but as yours is quite specific I am pleased to concede it as truthful and correct. I can absolutely believe that booing was motivated by ideas of match fixing. That does not mean that match fixing claims and booing can explain away all incidences, I refer to the match Martina Navritalova commented on when the girls were booed in NY a few years back. The girls are not always on the same side of the draw and still they get booed.

However what I find interesting is the fact that in terms of their career, they have not defaulted countless times as you say. In fact the number is quite FINITE - perhaps you might want to buy a dictionary to go along with my clue. ;) Also the numbers of defaults have been disproportionate to the number of times they have played each other on the same side of the draw. Also Venus has both tendonitis of knee and wrists and was sidelined for a year, Serena has had knee surgery and has had ankle strain. So it would seem that if you review how many games they needed medical attention for, in terms of how many games they play, the idea that they are constantly calling for false medical attention is not borne out in their statistics.

That is what interests me is perception versus statistics, and then within those statistics you have to factor in stoppages taken from the entire game for injuries, operations and treatment. So if you retire from a game and then cannot play for a while one might assume your injury is severe. One might also assume tennis players come back after small injuries as well - all the time. So far in terms of their meetings, injuries and losses I see no consistent pattern of such abuses, even if their father is clinically insane and should be shot on sight. I want to see the pattern by which everyone makes the judgement, not a pattern of assumption based on their crazy dad's rantings and a few instances. There was a period of time when their injuries prevented consistent and continuous tour play. I also believe in the beginning of their careers, there were far more issues. However, their overall records do not bear out the accusations made. (perhaps there has been improvement with their comeback) I can cite incidences of stoppages/defaults due to injuries, including Wimbledon which Venus treasures and has had to default from. I cannot attribute them to suspected match fixing.

You have to concede the game puts physical stresses on different players abilitites and health. Novak Djokovitch is one such player who seems to have a poor constitution, as opposed to specific physical injuries. Nadal has lots of knee injuries due to his game which is almost always chase till you die, his speed and pivots reflect his injuries. Tall players sustain lower back injuries, many players sustain back injuries from poor technique of serve. The Williams game followed the Martina Hingis era It was now big hitting, raw power and athleticism. The game went up a notch and so too the injuries. Those who have few injuries have good techniques in keeping with their body types - could you not factor that into the equation of injury stoppages. The girls were always injured, now they still carry injuries but have improved drastically.

I believe that they love their father, so have not disengaged from him. But they should be judged on their words and behaviours not his. That is what I am saying, what he says and does should make him the target, not the girls. When they were teens it was only natural their father represented them, as they have grown up, they can only represent themselves. I think they are doing a better job of it than he ever did,

For the record I actually do not think anti- Williams is purely racism, James Blake is an example of someone who epitomises white middle class values and he is adored. For the Williams it is a combination of things at any different time, From their independence where they will not play all tournaments, to their looks which they constantly get bagged about, and not just fashion misses(which are legendary and fair game) but their actual physical features. To their father, to their religion, match fixing, extra entrepreneurial activities, their charity or lack thereof, and to all sorts of things that define them as different. The harrassment the girls receive is not simply defined or undeserved in some instances. You suggest that racism isn't one of them. I have seen it and as it is directed at them they have experienced it so I say it has to be a factor at least some of the time as opposed to your view - none of the time. The Ape commentator proves my point, they do get this stuff and it has to affect their perception.

Also calling boys boys is not racist . Listening to people yell "move your ass boy""get back where you belong Monkey", "know your place boy"...taunts made only when referring to sports people of colour is racist. I was there I know the difference between racist and non-racist even though you assume I do not. As I look after a few boys at tennis training, if I use a term for them all - that is always going to be okay. I have called a bunch of kids on the playground a bunch of monkeys too...sue me...the context was appropriate and inclusive. No racial group was singled out, it applied to all and most sane people know the difference.

You say many people hear racism where none exists, that is true. As is the fact that many people deny racism when it does exist. You have shown in your reply to me that my examples are BS, made up, misinterpreted or I am just looking for a race angle. So far the incidences I refer to may have a multitude of meanings and yes racism will be one of them, not by the majority we would hope, but by some unfortunately. Racists are types of people who find crowds a superb place to spew venom, anonymity makes the cowards brave. I am not looking to blame all animosity on race, but I will rally against someone who discards it as not even possible or even a factor in any event if they have not seen it in the one they went to. I have also attended games where no racism reached my ears and hopefully none happened, that has not always been the case.

I do not call the race card. However what is really interesting is asserting that someone will, when they haven't. What is that about? When Serena talks about race I listen and review because in most of the instances of tension in the past, I have heard very few instances where she has talked about race. I have only heard them second hand as well. I think she could be wrong sometimes if she has said it, but could it actually be true that in some of those incidences, she may have actually experienced some racism? Her dad on the other hand may see it in every move. That is his bias. As I watch the Williams girls whenever I can and not as often as I wish I have not witnessed this constant race card they supposedly always play.

Racism in tennis exists in the crowds and in the players. Look at Leighton Hewitt's insistence that a black linesman favoured James Blake. Blake could have insisted all white linesmen were biased when assessing his calls. Seems some linespeople go blind in a match, sometimes it can do with the angle of the sun. I have seen so many players look long and hard at certain linespeople who keep missing the call...but they do not have the luxury of crying racism if they are not playing someone else of colour. Problem is a black guy would never get away with such an assertion would he - that would just be playing the race card.

Klein calling Raven Klaasan a kaffir was another example of racism. Please stop pretending it just does not happen in tennis. That is what is sad, not believing that people can be affected by their experiences and are not just making them up.

You assert she would play the race card, incorrect. You bought it up and then accuse me of being preoccupied with race.

Chasencash,

Ok, great post. I can see where you are coming from and can respect that. My apologies about sportscaster Tony Veitch. In this country he would have been fired. In my own defense....Radio New Zealand? Really? How did I miss that, especially when the new made it all the way to some UK webistes? RNZI is a SHORTWAVE news station that employs 11 people and broadcasts primarily to the sticks and outer islands. I guess I should get out more often. lol. Actually, I do listen to RNZI when I'm in NZ, and Tony Veitch is a troubled individual. He definitely should have been fired for making such statements.

The Indian Wells tourney is one of the biggies, and the incident there is well documented. It's a great tourney (it's a Masters event for the men), very fan friendly, and the players hang out all over the place. I think this tourney more than any other I've been to, encourages the players interacting with the fans, and puts the players in more accessible positions for the fans. If you've never been, you should go. Where are you from? You won't be seeing the Williams sisters though. They have boycotted the event ever since, even though it's a "mandatory" event.

I believe the instance you are talking about when the sisters were booed in NY was due to the fact that they pulled out of the doubles because they were advancing in singles and wanted to conserve energy, apparently. They also have a history of pulling out of the doubles for whatever reasons, so it is natural that there are many angry fans. NY will certainly let you know.

Ok, they haven't defaulted countless times, for the number of times can certainly be counted. However, early in their careers they did pull out of tourneys if they were on the same side of the draw, of if both advance far enough for a meeting.....always siting injury, then showing up the next week for the following event. Yes, they have been injured in their careers. What athlete hasn't? But when they use injury as an excuse to pull out of tourney because they may have to face each other or they are on the same side of the draw, they should be expected to be booed when they do show up. Plenty of white players are booed, plenty of Black players are not booed. Just because someone is booed doesn't mean it's racism, as you implied in your earlier post. And just to be clear, I wasn't referring to the Williamses as the players who are constantly calling for trainers or taking bathroom breaks. I was just illustrating that when the crowd perceives gamesmanship, they will boo. It doesn't matter what ethnicity you are. It has nothing to do with racism.

If you want patterns, just check out their early careers. History speaks volumes. They have overcome whatever barriers seemed to be preventing them from facing each other in a draw (psychological, religious, whatever), but such wasn't always the case.

Your assessment of kinetics is correct, and yes, the Williams sisters have gotten better in that respect. But early on (and as recently as earlier this year for Serena, for which she was fined and used the "they are out to get me" defense), the sisters had used the injury excuse when they didn't want to play a tournament they had committed to, or their guarantee money wasn't what they wanted, only to continue their training and show up to the next event without the hint of an injury. It was a well known joke on the tour, and all they had to do was have a doctor's excuse saying they were injured. No objective finding, just subjective findings and that was enough. Yes, they were constantly fined, but that's just a drop in the bucket, especially when they would pull out of an even to play a lucrative exo.

So you don't think the anti Williams sentiment is PURELY racism, implying that some of the disdain and even hate for the Williamses is racism. That may be true, and every incident should be judged individually. However, racism is used as a crutch by many, including the Williams clan, when none exists. Other players have had to deal with far more heinous and public racism (Shahar Peer for example), which is blatantly seen and heard.

Yes, you are right. Calling a boy a boy is not racist. However, in this ridiculously PC country, calling a Black boy a boy is considered racist for some reason. Many will interpret racism when none exists. Your other examples do demonstrate racism, none of which happened in the incidents where the Williams clan sited racism.

I disagree with you wholeheartedly in your statement that crowds empower racists. I will agree that anonymity empowers the racist, but there would be no anonymity in a crowd. If you are talking about mob mentality, I would have to agree, but mob mentality is borne of like minded individuals. A racist would not thrive in a crowd at a sporting event, trust me. I don't care if it were the Whitest sporting event in history, not in this country anyway, and we still have a long way to go in regards to racism. The internet (where anonymity reigns) is where racism thrives, as well as lively discussion. How many posters on just this topic would not have the gumption to say any of what they have posted? I would venture to guess quite a few.

You're right on about Hewitt. He's a douche bag. Not a well-liked player at all, and he's been booed throughout his career as well, for his behavior, not the colour of his skin. He was also fined for the Blake incident.

Yes, racism does exist. That a given. But the race card is played far too often when none exists. We were talking about a specific incident in tennis that had nothing to do with racism, yet race was made an issue. Your siting other examples of racism is irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion. Just because racism exists in this world doesn't mean that whenever a Black player gets in trouble, it's a case of racial retaliation.

I never asserted she would play the race card. That was someone else. I, for one, am fairly confident that she will not, simply because she has probably learned her lesson from all the other times she has cried racism. I just commented on other posters who said that the Williamses never use racism as a crutch, then gave SPECIFIC examples where they did. You, on the other hand, implied that the booing that they suffered during Indian Wells, was a product of racism. So no, I did not bring it up, but YES, I do accuse you of being preoccupied with race.

Martin Luther King, jr. once said that he hoped his four children would not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. Serena was certainly judged by the content of her character.

Having an excuse not to hear the ape comment is fine, not believing others who heard it.....mmmmm .... You demonstrated my point though thanks - Just because you haven't heard something personally, that does not mean it could not have happened. If a tree falls in the woods and all that.... Racist @!$%# happens and it blights the sport and people who watch sports and it hurts the individual it is aimed at. People wrote in to various websites to support Veitch (whose true colours were later revealed) in the belief he spoke the absolute truth. Moreover, who did hear the comment on radio? (perhaps only those who have no life) The commentary and uproar surrounding how one of NZ's prominent sports commentators could be so racist during Aust. Open fever projected the comment to a huge trans-tasman crowd and beyond. The internet is a beast.

You did give a specific example of when their dad used racism as a crutch - not the Williams sisters. I also had no idea of the Indian Wells incident so was thinking of other later incidences of booing and when you bought up Inidan Wells I made some assumptions - you know how that can go right? I have conceded that incident and will concede others as well, but I will still maintain that for some people an underlying current of racism fuels their venom. I also maintain that at various points the girls have been directly exposed to the racism and venom. I know you think that as their dad sees it everywhere even when it isn't there the girls cannot possibly ever experience it either. Any ape comment surely shows the flawed logic. You just have to look at this thread to see the vile and absolutely disgusting taunts these girls receive where even their femininity is questioned and that has nothing to do with match fixing. I suggest you have a point for Indian Wells, the same cannot be said for all incidences of booing, or recent displays of lack of support in all other tournaments. I maintain that within all crowds there are racists - I don't care what reason they use to vent.

Please tell me all the incidents you refer to of Serena always calling racism in the past? I think I heard one, with Venus and the beads at Wimbledon and it was indirect. I am not talking about her dad either, just Serena and Venus. I am interested if it was early years, a constant pattern, peppered throughout her career, even attributable to her not hearsay or from her father.

Anyhoo here is what really bothers me - and it is not race. If teens/young adults have the stage parent from hell why are they held responsible for the actions of their ambitious and yes demented care giver. These young girls were abused in sporting arenas from a very young and impressionable age and yet as they have grown and come back to the sport, they have shown far more physical stamina and goodwill to the crowds and the fans then the earlier crowds suggest they had in them.

I have noticed how Richard has been slowly weaned out of the picture, as all parents experience when their kids take control themselves. I also have no doubt that their father directed their moves when young, as most teens/young adults will suggest, they did not hold the reigns especially if their parent was overbearing. However Dokic is an example where the public understood that dad was crazy and the public encouraged her anyway, knowing what she was up against at home and what influenced her earlier moves and bad decisions. I find that lack of understanding for the girls may have been wrapped up in a backlash of distaste for the father, and you point out my point for me the differences between the earlier years and the later years as well as examples of the race card that dad played, not the girls. I see the progression of girls led by someone with his own issues, to girls getting on with their own lives and trying to contextualise a history of highs, lows and in between. They may get it wrong sometimes, but the complexity of all the things they face sometimes would be daunting to those on the outside let alone those cast into the spotlight to grow up. The goal posts keep shifting for them, if they can no longer be accused of match fixing/injury breaks or gamemanship and in fact mirror professionalism, we are now looking for more and more reasons for an unforgiving public?

Serena deserves public backlash for this issue, do not get me wrong, she fueled this one herself. But even at this tournament in preceding games many of the crowd still supported and cheered for her opposition when they had been so vocally and collectively supportive of other Americans. I think that previous negative and even valid perceptions have lingered on unfairly and may have been refueled by other issues,and some of those issues are ugly.

I suggest that not all their previous injury breaks were fraudulent, as evidenced by the very real long term stoppages, surgeries and medical interventions the girls received at the beginning stages of their careers. I also point out the knee injuries which are for most athletes major crippling recurring issues. If you can see the progression and note the injuries still exist, you have to concede some goodwill in assuming that they actually may have had injuries in their careers.

I also suggest that any sports commentator will tell you that playing doubles should always be secondary to singles and I have heard that many times where sports commentators suggest that players have to pull out of the doubles when they advance in the single draw. When the Williams were first trying to win big any commentator would say the same thing, you have to sacrifice doubles, once you have a shot at the major title. Sam Stosur is known as a doubles player, once she started to show promise in the singles, the advice was the same - give up the doubles and focus on the singles, I have heard this commentary within the tournament setting. Now the Willliams girls balance both, because they are confident that one does not affect the outcome of the other because they have come so far. Today even with stoppages and having to play on the same day - they do not default when clearly any coach today for any player would sacrifice the doubles for a single title. Perhaps they were simply overambitious in youth, thinking they could do it all, now they meet the expectations they set. Would it be hard to assume they may not have had the ability in earlier years. Such an expectation of any player today is a bit hard I think, considering very few can actually do it. I see the glass half full?

I defend these girls because I see in them what we hope for in children that continue to grow and learn. I know the daunting stage parent and the expectations and stresses put on kids, I also see how long it takes for those kids to actually define themselves and I see the mistakes they make in doing so. It made me sad to see Serena lose it, to have come so far in trying to carve a professional identity against such resistance and to then undo so much of what she wants to achieve.

Overall, I note the changes and applaud. I wish she could be judged overall, not just held to the standards set by her father or by the misdeeds of her past which were almost certainly influenced by her father and by her youth. I am absolutely sad for the setback which allows people to come out and attack on every level and not just this incident. She should get punished, fined and lose the point, but I do rally against any attempt of others to come out here and say this defines her - rubbish, her entire life defines her, not this regrettable moment. From where I stand she is a fighter, and I would be proud to have her on my team, although she would have to face harsh discipline for any such infringements.

I refute all those attacks, historical, racial, gendered, because they work like a human wrecking ball, where she will never be able to redeem herself and be truly free and responsible. I also absolutely believe Serena should face and has faced the music. Now she has however seems some people refuse to incorporate contexts, statistics, progression into their negative viewpoints. What is up with that? The girl deserves more support in order to continue to become more, not more negativity. Surely we want people to succeed.

I see so much character in her, and a hideous recent mistake. Every slight you have made about match fixing and gamemanship is historical, ask yourself if you personally want to be forever defined by the decisions you made in your youth. I know I was a self centered jerk without much knowledge or regard for others. If you do believe that is fair than I leave you to your assessment.

The fictitious race card, sorry if it wasn't you but how ridiculous of others. She cannot win or ever be judged on just one thing, along comes the incorrect assertion that she will find an excuse and a racial one at that. And if she didn't she woulda if she coulda but she must have learnt a lesson from when her dad was spouting the race card? Bizarre...no race issue here, but don't assume it never has relevance.

Chasencash, see, here is where your logic (or lack thereof), and reading comprehension (or lack thereof), makes communicating with you and reading your posts very frustrating! You state that I didn't believe the ape comment because I didn't hear it. Where in the world did I say that? Then you go into a tree falling in the woods analogy, as if that will give your misguided comments any more weight. No, I didn't hear the original ape comment. Do I believe he said it, yes. Tony Veitch is also a douche bag. Do I believe his comments are racist? Yes. Do I believe his comments had anything to do in any way with the incident we are discussing? NO.

You are correct; Richard Williams should be held accountable for his own words and actions. However, both Venus and Serena testified after that Indian Wells match that they, too, heard the racist comments. Serena even went so far as to say that people were calling her the N word throughout the match. NEVER HAPPENED, and nobody believed it, except the few who see racism at every corner and in every nook and cranny. This is one of those times when your logic needs to kick in and you need to ask yourself, "I heard no racial comments, so does that mean the didn't exist? No. However, the rest of the puzzle seems so illogical that it would have to defy all common sense to be true." Is it possible that racial slurs were bandied about all throughout the match and the Williamses were the only ones who heard them. I guess that's possible, but is it logical? Does it seem like something that can really happen? Think carefully about your answer, for this will tell everyone a great deal about your state of mind.

Additionally, the sisters have backed up their father's ridiculous assertions on many occasions. Venus has distanced herself from her father, and has even mildly spoken out publicly against some of his views. I have not heard Serena do so, which doesn't mean that she hasn't done it. I know, there are trees in the woods......

We don't need to go to the distant past to hear Serena pulling the race card. We need only go to earlier this year. She wanted to pull out of a French prep tourney, citing injury. She claimed that she had played too many tournaments and had a full schedule. The WTA wouldn't give her a pass and was going to fine her $100k. Serena implied racism for the incident and decision by the WTA. Nevermind that she really wanted to pull out because she wanted to attend the Grammy Awards, or some awards show that she was supposed to be a presenter at. Last year when she was grossly out of shape and was asked about it by reporters, she claimed such questions were racist and would be asked of a White player. On and on. The public gets a sanitized picture of what really goes on in tennis, and not just by the Williams sisters. There are a number of expose books that you can read to get the inside scoop. There is also a magazine called Inside Tennis that is FANTASTIC, and will give you a lot of insight to the tour, and give you many racy tidbits of the happenings on the tour.

You state that the girls have been "abused in sporting arenas from a very young and impressionable age." Excuse me? If they were "abused" it was due to their poor behavior.

Your assertions regarding Dokic are incorrect. She received much public backlash for her support of her father (I mean, that's unfair. She was just a kid who saw the sun rise in her father's eyes), and lost many endorsements because of it. I think your implication is that Dokic was embraced even though she had a crazy father because she is White, whereas the Williams sisters are booed for their father's actions because they are Black. Wrong. Dokic was booed at Eastborne one year after her father had a drunken rage, and she defended his actions. The same goes with Maria Sharapova, who has constantly defended her crazy overbearing father and has received public backlash for it. They all have received this public backlash because of their actions, not the color of their skin.

Your assertion that the crowd was against Serena was in some way nefarious, since other Americans were heartily cheered. Your implication (by your own words) is that the support for Serena's opposition is because she is Black. WRONGO AGAINO! In this country, we love the underdog and that's who we cheer for. That, coupled with that fact that Serena is a malignant narcissist, and ego maniac, a poor loser, and a bitch, is the reason that the crowds routinely cheer the other players. When Steffi was at the top, crowds were routinely against her because she was so dominating, not because the color of her skin.

Tennis is a tough sport and many injuries exist. The Willaimses have had a litany of injuries throughout their careers, many of them very suspect.

Ok, I'm calling BS again on your assertion that commentators routinely say that singles is the priority and that its ok to pull out of doubles if you progress in the singles draw. Where have you EVER heard that. Oh, ok, maybe on RNZI. But that is most ridiculous!! NO COMMENTATOR IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS WOULD SAY THAT YOU HAVE TO SACRIFICE DOUBLES. It's just the opposite. I have heard commentators try to smooth over the waters after the Williamses have defaulted doubles and give them a pass. How many times during this US open did you hear the major commentators speculating if Venus was going to pull out of the doubles, and praising her for NOT pulling out and continuing to play even when heavily strapped. When players are INJURED, then sacrificing the doubles becomes a concern, but only then. Commentators are constantly bashing players who pull out of doubles to concentrate on singles. Mac is one of the most vocal. Oh, yeah, when Steffi pulled out of the mixed semis that year she made the late run at Wimby, the commentators were all over. Mac was her partner and he gave her a tongue lashing in person, and dissed her repeatedly on the air. She was also booed at Wimby of all places, and she not Black either. So your assertion that the Williamses are booed because of racial reasons are so utterly absurd.

The Williamses were also known to enter dubs, especially at the French and Wimby, to get extra practice on the courts, which are limited and hard to come by. Once they get a few matches they would pull out, citing injury, only to go on in the singles without the hint of injury (other than being strapped). At Wimby one year they asked to have their doubles match moved becaue they had played singles and didn't want to stay that late. They were denied, so they pulled out, citing injury, of course. You have to understand, too, that when they sign up for dubs, they are taking away a place for another team, a lower ranked team whose livelihood is often times derived by the winnings they make in doubles. When players pull out because they want to save themselves, they are essentially denying another player from making a living. Yes, playing doubles and singles is a concern. But the concern should be whether to sign up for the doubles in the first place, NOT to pull out if you progress to the quarters in singles. JESUS CHRIST? DOES THAT NOT MAKE SENSE TO YOU?!!

You can defend them all you want. You can defend their poor behavior until the cows come home. You can defend anyone you want who demonstrates bad behavior and poor decision making, who have poor attitudes, etc. God knows, it happens all the time in sports and celebrity in general. In my opinion, this is why the behavior still exists, because of apologists such as yourself.

And why are you harping on this incident being the one that "defines" her? She will be defined by a compendium of events and decisions. This is just another example of her poor behavior that goes to complete the final picture. I haven't heard on person say that this event "defines" her.

You said that you did not believe it it by begging me repeatedly to please prove it, and let us not be silly about that, you called BS. Do you really want to pretend you went "OH...I did not know that." I do not need to requote you, it was pretty disrespectful to me to assume I was a liar. I try to assume you made an assumption, as I know what that is like. Agreeing after the fact is completely different to giving people any credit for having some knowledge to draw on in the first place.

You cannot keep using Indian Wells as the only example where racism did not fuel the booing. Just as she cannot use the ape comment as indicative of all commentary. If you keep insisting that they always cry racism and have never heard it, then you would be wrong because in other incidences at other events other people have heard it. Do not get bent out of shape, I am inclined to believe that they may not have heard it at Indian Wells, and they were still heavily influenced by a father who ran the show.

You see the problem arises again when you say BS about singles and doubles. You have no idea what commentary I hear, as there are so any international ones, so do you assume you hear them all??? That is simply bizarre. I have heard it several times, and I heard it with Sam Stosur along with extensive commentary on her lime disease. There is no point to this argument, if only your experiences get validated as truthful and everyone else is just BS. I have heard it repeatedly with the Williams sisters, I heard it around the time when they changed the focus and rules of doubles with new rules of nomination...and I heard it in relation to the argument put forward that it would make the game more accessible to singles who want to improve their volley game and not feel too taxed in the doubles. But again because you have not heard you call BS. Have we not done this before? The Mac argument is silly, any partner would lose it if their partner pulled out. But you also concede my point...players black and white sacrifice doubles for singles and guess what - commentary I have heard both understand it and agree with it. A pass is an acceptance that the prizemoney and prestige of singles outweighs the doubles. Injury is also acceptable when pulling out of doubles to ensure you last longer in singles. I do not have a clue who you listen to, but damn I have heard it repeatedly and I guess because I follow no name local players and their run in the doubles..I keep hearing it...because they are not good enough for the singles draw they have to be mindful that they partner someone unlikely to pull out. However, unlike you...I know that you also hear another perspective as equally valid....I am sure there arecommentators who just despise the idea of players entering doubles, taking someone elses place and then pulling out. Just because they have a valid point, does not mean other commentators cannot take a different approach. If any logic is flawed here, it would be your failure to understand a multitude of commentary opinions circulate around sport.

Finally, the point you make about pulling out and harming your partner would be correct it is wrong when you ruin your partner's living. Except for Venus and Serena who partner each other and would rather win a million than share a couple of hundred thousand. Yep that makes a world of sense to me and to many many commentators, who give the pass. They give their opposition a free run, they only affect each other and not people dependent on doubles for income and guess what while you may not like it, singles trumps doubles over and over again. They also almost always do not pull out anymore, because they balance both.

I do not defend this behaviour, I battle ugly perceptions,. Show me all the incidences of official abuse and I can make a call as to her repeated behaviour, show me progression..and I believe in change.

I harp on about defining her because people use it as an excuse not to see the changes in their lives, to see progression and to have some context or even goodwill. People talk about ugly behaviour, damn there is a lot of it on this thread. If you want to define someone else by better models, great...if you can provide one. Seems many people here do not get the irony of the standards they demand.

Tidbits, juicy ones...are usually called gossip Sorry, have not read it...and most times information I like to read usually can be verified from a multitude of sources.

The guy who removed himself from her facebook and twitter following was an example of someone I understand. He was appalled by her behaviour, he did something himself to show his feelings, and if that happened enmasse, what a fine message. We cannot teach people how to act by acting like ugly people ourselves, if we are interested in actually getting our message across. He did not resort to despicable name calling and abuse, he acted on his own conscience and sent the best message possible. Serena, when you act like a bully you will lose support

Stop trying to reduce my argument to racial to make your points. If you need to simplify everything to that, you are the one pre-occupied with race. I do not imply Dokic is white and therefore is not subject to continued harrassment, that is ridiculous and not even my point. My point is - spot the dad - make a more measured assessment. The reason Dokic is championed now is because her journey has meant emancipation from her father, her battle is compex, with a variety of issues. How appalling to assume race in every thought while accusing me of being race oriented. So many of your points were linked to the dad, I simply wanted you to remember that the dad is crazy and the girls have spent some time trying to balance the love and support they have for him, and a need to carve out their own niche. The Dokic example points out it can be done although admittedly it was easier as Dokic has a restraining order...we should not have to expect that to happen to be able to see for ourselves the changes being made.

Let us agree to disagree. You have some good points, ones I have noted. They do add more to the picture I have, as all readings or pictures can be read and enhanced if you change the light and shade.

Chasen, Yes, you are correct. I made the assumption that you were talking about a mainstream commentator, who would have been fired for such remarks, especially in this country. I was not aware that this thread was posted all over the world, and I certainly had no idea that you were referring to comments made by Tony Veitch on RNZI. Yes, there are racial comments made all the time. Racism still exists in this world. If some crackpot with a ham radio makes a racial comment, then that gives your argument credence, apparently. More concern from me with your lack of logic. You are correct, I did assume you were a liar. I apologize for that. But if you continue to use such OBSCURE references, then your judgement needs to be called in question.

I have not used Indian Wells as the only example of the Williamses crying racism. I have mentioned many others. Did you not see any of those? And why do you say that I "keep insisting that they always cry racism." I never said that. I only gave SPECIFIC examples of when they did cry racism when none existed. I don't care if in their special world they perceived racism or not, just as you perceived racism in some of these post where no racism exist. I deal in the here and low with a most logical and clear mind. I'm a bit Vulcan that way.

Yes, it is possible that you heard some sportscaster in the sticks who has never been around the pro tennis tour say that is ok to pull out of doubles to save yourself for singles. I've heard some pretty lame stuff come out of the mouths of sportscasters who cover other sports primarily and have to cover tennis for the majors. Pretty lame. So yes, you may have heard that SOMEWHERE, but it was not by any of the major sportscasters who cover the majors for ESPN or CBS. Maybe you might have heard it on RNZI, or from the local pro at your club, who knows. I won't call you a liar, for you probably did hear it. Think about who you heard it from. I texted 7 of the big commentators from ESPN and CBS. I've heard back from 5 of them so far. All five said they emphatically would not condone pulling out of doubles to save energy for singles. Can you please tell me who these commentators are that you've heard give these points of view and I can probably get in touch with them myself and ask for clarification. I can pretty much guarantee you though, that if they were a major commentator, you misinterpreted what they were saying. Now, if it were a sheep farmer who's been playing tennis for 30 years, I'll give that one to you. Yes, you may have heard it. OY!

You are right. Many different commentaries and opinions exists is sports. The ones you give credence to are the ones that reveal your character and you level of judgment. There are commentators here who say the Barry Bonds is the greatest player to play baseball, and that the BALCO scandal does nothing to diminish his greatness. I guess there are people who believe that, and that is their right. It's completely illogical though. Oh yeah, cries of racism on that one too.

As for making millions instead of splitting a couple hundred thousand... I guess that's where your mentality lays. It's ok if you can make more money doing it. The integrity of the sport doesn't matter. Stranding paying ticket holders doesn't matter. Taking the spot from somebody who can really use the money doesn't really matter. As long as you can make more money for YOURSELF it's ok. I guess I can understand where you got your screen name from.

Inside Tennis carries stuff from interviews that networks don't show. Read it. You'll get a little glimpse of what we see on the tour daily.

And you are the one who brought up the point about Dokic having a crazy father, yet she doesn't get booed because she is White. I merely pointed out that she did get booed for supporting her father, so you argument that the Williamses get booed because they are Black holds no water. I also gave examples of other white players that were booed for their behavior, not the color of their skin.

As for your forgiveness and hoping for change.......PLEASE TELL ME YOU ARE NOT A JUDGE IN THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM, AND THAT YOU DON'T HAVE CHILDREN. ;-) (that was just a little dig).

NO NO NO NO NO...I never ever said Dokic gets booed because she was white - you just said I did. You keep reading stuff that isn't there and then accusing me of doing the same thing. I wrote a huge speel on my focus of stage parents...and you came out with the racial angle and then keep accusing me of it.

You talk of people being accused of racism unfairly, you constantly accuse me of playing race card when I don't so go reveiw what I actually said and stop holding me to a standard you do not set for others...you say people imply racism when there is none, and then you do the exact same thing with me....you imply that I play the race card...when I do not...show me the words where I did because right now it looks like your perceptions are just clouding your judgement.

Can I say again Dokic had to divorce herself from her dad and in doing so the public got to see the tension she lives under...I simply say we should not demand that of any child that loves their parent, we should have enough understanding to look beyond the dad - not cast them together. That has nothing to do with race, the public feel for her because she has to make it alone. I feel for the Williams because they have to make their way out from the umbrella of someone who caused quite a lot of damage for them. I still respect his desire to do the best thing for his girls,but he is a jerk. That is my point and you are completely wrong to read that whole invested post about how I really feel and then reduce it to race. Seriously that is just absolutely unbelievable. I am a parent...that is my angle.

Stop believeing commentary is now heirarchical, and because I have heard it and you havent you can discredit it as first being untruthful and then you say I just lack any judgement for having heard it. I have heard it in mainstream commentary as well. That is quite bizarre and reflects utter disrespect...to paraphrase OH no you lie and didn't hear it that is BS and then when your logic is disproven - oh so you may have heard it but it must have been so obscure...blah blah blah. You refer to a magazine I do not read as truth and then pretend any other following of supposed obscure media outlets reflects a lack of judgement on my part. Pot meet kettle.

I have heard it in mainstream commentary. Just like I hear the debate on screaming when playing. Yeah I heard it, it exists and it is obvious that commentators always have dissenting opinons, that is what makes sports commentary interesting. If they all said the same thing without personal opinion, that would not be worth listening to. I hate screamers...some commentary defends it as part of technique, most that I have heard despise it in the woman's game. There you go, as I cannot have access to commentary other than that which I must get with tv coverage...then I have to accept various opinions prevail elsewhere. As I hear dissenting opinions in the same commentary I have to suggest the practise is rampant!!

I believe in change and if you fail to change I believe in bringing the hammer down...hard. I also forgive the odd lapse if the movement forward continues...sorry..yes that is a parent thing...kids always always fall back a few times till they get it right. I cannot write them off, no parent should. That is my focus, I see girls growing up late because they are like all of those pushed by parents in a field...they take longer than others. You see something else...and that has nothing to do with race.

YES, YES, YES. I believed you when you said that the "tarred and feathered" comment was not meant racially. But you can't expect me to believe that ALL these posts of yours where you make covert reference to racism to be coincidental. Now you are expecting me to believe that your comments concerning Dokic were not racially motivated? Please. If you are denying this, then you are more deluded than I first thought. YOU are the one who brought up Dokic and Pierce as examples of White players who didn't get booed or suffer public backlash due to their crazy fathers. YOU are the one that brought race into the conversation once again. I simply pointed out (once again) that your inference was again incorrect, in that Dokic did suffer public backlash and booing for supporting her crazy father. You implied that the Williamses faced negativity due to the actions of their fathers, while White players had never suffered the same fate. I simply pointed out your incorrect assumption and allegory.

I don't need to give you any more examples. You can go back and read your own words. I have given you ample examples.

Why is Richard Williams a jerk, but Serena not. If Richard's father was a jerk, then by your logic, Richard would then not be a jerk because of the hardship he's had to endure under the "umbrella" of his father?

The rest of your post is looping and redundant. We've covered it before, even if you are changing your story now. Words don't lie. You wrote them, and their implications are clear.

Hypocrite.

Ohhh...you say, so many people look for race in everything. When I point out what bothers me about constantly referring to Richard (which you did) and not contextualising a progression from which the girls have come out from under their father's shadow...you put racial inferences in my words that are not there and you cannot even indicate which words show a supposed race angle.

When asked to prove that I mentioned or even implied race in relation to the dokic incident - you fall back on the I do not believe you. Got nothing huh..or just desperate to appear like you bought a clue.

Once more for the cheap seats - I am never afraid to take on race when OTHER people bring it up.

When I bring up another point based on another completely separate point that has nothing to do with race - your FALSE accusation fall back is ...I do not believe you!!!! Seems accusing someone of lying, rather than proving the point is rather tragic.. and kind of funny - what are you twelve? Liar liar pants on fire is a little too juvenile but I am beginning to realise who I am dealing with. Hey don't let the facts stop you...you can always claim conspiracy theory.

You lack self - awareness to accuse others of FALSE racial inference and then repeatedly fall into doing it yourself. One rule for you - huh...seems I do not even have to mention anything to do with race and go into great depth about issues that do bug me and you get to cry race card userer...fantastic logic there buddy. I guess you won't review my words because you might then have to eat crow...

You are so right - it would take someone with analytical skills to understand my logic. Your logic is certainly defining you and so many times you prove my point without meaning to.

Oh and by the way by if Serena is a jerk because of her father, then Dokic must be and so must be Mary Pierce and everyone else who ever suffered under a stage parent.... Seriously grow up. I have known many people whose parents were complete and utter @!$%#s, and they have fought to become fabulous people...So that logic is just stupid.

You are also completely wrong - I did not say that Dokic and Pierce do not get booed beacuse they are white - more projection on your part. I say the public understands the distance between Dokic and her fathers and are more forgiving of past misdeeds. I also bring them both up because they have publicly had to emancipate themselves. That is their commonality...who the hell knew you would see them as white and therefore that was my point. Hate to burst your bubble but I also bring up all sorts of other tennis players in relation to other points and it never occurred to me to check their racial profile first....

Also I am clearly talking about the recent response to Dokic...and yes I have read extensively on her comeback, her time away, her struggle, her boyfriend's influence, her fightback and her love hate relationship with Australia that marred the early years....so I understand how her independence factors into forgiveness....but hey you just keep playing the imaginary race card on my behalf...

Because the Williams are still linked with the misdeeds of their dad(and you are so guilty of STILL lumping them together even when conceding a visible divide that appears to have happened in the last two years) and I bring this fact up and you just label me as bringing up a racist point. Yep sturdy solid argument that one.

Cannot see the race angle myself considering the amount of time I spent on the stage Dad issue but hey - don't credit me with any understanding of my own words. That only applies to others.

Come on my words do not lie...show me where the race angle is in my discussion of dokic...and remember the standards you apply to others...show me where I even referred to race or whiteness or even implied it.....

Apparently you get all bent out of shape when people read race through implications...unless it is you.

Chasen, Here are YOUR words, in quotes. All this from you VERY FIRST post:

"FYI Martina Navritalova noted in commentary a few years back how strange it was to have an all American crowd not support the Williams sisters on their way to the final, they would support foreign players. Strange that. One standard for patriotic loyalty that does not apply to some Americans? McEnroe was the worst sports person ever, and Americans loved him."

Here you quote the famous speculation laid down by MN (who also got negative public backlash because of it), when she implied racism as the reason why the Williams sisters are not supported in their own country. YOU are the one who brings race into it in your VERY FIRST post on the thread. And don't give me your standard, "Oh, language barrier. I didn't know MN was referring to race when she said that." Just before that quote you are harping about racism, then you quote the famous statement regarding racism as the reason the Williamses are not supported more. And if you didn't get that implication when you first read it or heard it from MN, I call your comprehension skills into question once again.

This from your VERY FIRST post in response to me:

"Who the hell boos a player that is injured? What reasoning do you suppose they booed? Rafael Nadal was injured recently and walked around looking okay - was he booed too? Seriously tell me why she was booed again?

Your implication here is clear as well. If they are unintended, then once again, your logic and communication skills must be questioned. Who the hell boos and injured player? Your implication is that the Williamses are booed because they are Black, because non-Black players do the same thing and are not booed. Yeah yeah yeah, that's not your implication, right? But you go into a tirade about race before and after those very sentenses, but we are not supposed to make the racial implication in those remarks and many others you have posted?

"the Williams father is crazy, there is no doubt but no one judges Mary Pierce by her crazy dad or the Australian Dokovitch?by her crazy dad" Your implication? Other players (weather White or not), are not judged by their fathers. For some reason, the Williamses are. What might that reason be? In your view, not because of their poor behavior. Hmmmmm.....what other reason could there be? Oh, but you weren't talking about racism right? You just meant that the Williamses receive negativity because they are Jehovah Witnesses, while the others are Protestant and Catholic.

And the piece de resistance, from just your FIRST post, no less:

"So if the Williams hear the racism directed at them and you don't that does not mean it does not happen. I have personally heard it and read it. If a tree falls in the woods and all that. You may have sat in front of them but you did not escort them around that arena now did you? The fact that they would boo an injured player speaks volumes, the fact that some in the crowd some may have issued racist taunts is not that unbelievable...now is it? Unless you truly believe that racism does not exist anywhere in any sporting arena."

YOU have directly tied the booing and negativity to race.

"For the record I actually do not think anti- Williams is purely racism, James Blake is an example of someone who epitomises white middle class values and he is adored.

You've doubly injected racism into this statement. You don't think it's PURELY racism, which means, by your own statement, that you believe part of it is racism. That's just my point. You've been using this very argument that the negativity and disgust that Serena is receiving on this issue is borne of racism. IF YOU TRY TO DENY THIS, THEN YOU DELUSION GOES DEEPER THAN I THOUGHT. Deny all you want; your words speak volumes. Even worse, you state that because James Blake acts White, he is adored. HOW OFFENSIVE IS THAT?!! Why is it that when a Black person acts with grace and composure, he is epitomizing White middle class values. Why can't he be representing Black middle class values. YOUR WORDS!

"The harassment the girls receive is not simply defined or undeserved in some instances. You suggest that racism isn't one of them. I have seen it and as it is directed at them they have experienced it so I say it has to be a factor at least some of the time as opposed to your view - none of the time. The Ape commentator proves my point, they do get this stuff and it has to affect their perception."

More proof. Once again, I will try to make this crystal clear so you can finally get it. I do believe racism exists in the world. Do I believe that is why Serena acts the way she does? I don't give a flying fig why she acts the way she does. The fact is, she acts the way she does for whatever reason. She deserves to be punished.

"Like being called an ape by one sports commentator, by having articles about how ugly she is when she carries Nike bag endorsements unlike Sharapova who is also a rep. The ugliness that surrounds her press is evident on the international circuit and has been going on long before this incident. She gets a lot of bad press at tournaments when I have seen her show nothing but graciousness."

Your response to this poster:

wyliecoyote-246407

Send a strong message to this mangirl. Hit her in the pocketbook with a YEAR long removal from the usta tour. Maybe, just maybe , she might have learned to be contrite.Otherwise we have had our fill of these this primadonna.

#149 - Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:56 AM PDT

{"commentId":9476715,"authorDomain":"chasencash"}

chasencash

Of course teach that uppity little thing a lesson - doesn't she know her place?

Uppity little thing? Know her place? This implies racism, though you deny meaning it that way. So it's not my interpretation skills that are in question on this one, it's the words you used to convey your position.

And don't forget the "tarred and feathered" comments. Those are racially fueled comments, and even if you didn't mean it that way, it wouldn't be a leap for them to be taken as such, especially in view of the tone of these posts.

So there you have it.

hypocrite.

Nope wrong again - about Dokic and Pierce -and every other implication you make rather what I said. I even provided you with the very simple reason why they were so judged differently and yet you ignore it - they PUBLICLY emancipated themselves and in doing so were allowed to be seen outside of parental influence - so your attempt at implication rather than assessing the words I said make you a racemongering hypocrite.

I own every word I said about race, I refuse to own the ones you imply. I even own ones that were innocently made in regards to gender but I realise could be misconstrued, so there goes your flimsy argument,

Furthermore there is so much more I talk about regarding race, I just do not pretend like you that it doesn't ever happen, Proof look at this very thread.

And thanks for getting desperate at the end by using the European based words of punishment that have nothing to do with race, and apply them liberally in your feeble attempt to cover your hypocrisy about crying like a baby when people see racism where there isn't...don't account for any geographic differences or anything because then you would have to admit you are a hypocrite who is so self unaware, the rules he applies to others, do not apply to himself.

If you have to be a biased judgemnental prat - hey that is your bag...but stop trying to make points that are not there - how so...stop having to imply things in order to weasle out of the fact that the Dokic argument is not to to with race and your assessment has everything to do with your projection and constant assumption.

You made a fool of yourself crying liar and then calling me illogical or my resources were too obscure even though they existed. You made a further fool of yourself by falling into your own trap. Only you can read racism when you think it is implied and everyone else just draws the race card...yes yes yes you are quite the hypocrite. Dokic and Pierce had stage dads and publicly removed themselves from their father's influence....yet you see only white girls compared to a black girl...dear Lord, please please please tell me the non-white girls I should have used as a reference, unfortunately for me as race is not an issue, I didn't think to use examples other than the ones that came to mind. Having to think about race when using examples of other girls does my head in - because who knew you would have to racially segregate them in order for YOU too see the point I made...Unfortunately I do not know any woman of colour who have stage dads, does that mean I am not allowed to compare women of different races? OMG, no one told me the new rules set by the tennis joke.

SO STAY ON POINT and stop trying to introduce separate arguments to bolster your hypocrisy. YOU read racism where there was none and in so doing you are a hypocrite. I discuss race when it is bought up and a whole lot of other points too....Sue me, at least I actually aren't constantly being proved wrong, even you demonstate that the later Williams sisters are improvements on the old days when they were under parental shadow...and yet somehow.,...it is all racism.. Yep say it again - hypocrite.

I realise now you keep shifting the goal posts rather than concede you are guilty of your own indictments and pet peeves. What would be the point of an argument that requires you to put words in other people's mouths. When you cannot find the words to indict you have to resort to the old racial implications you so despise....Oh the irony.

So far, and by your logic as I have addressed race previously and regardless of the fact that I have addressed all sorts of other issues, then you say I link everything back to race. BULL@!$%#. Your desperation at being called out is showing. Now you are starting to invent stuff that we have already gone through and understood, to try to attach race to everything I say.

You want to keep calling me a liar and you fall back on implication as proof, even after considering geographic/cultural nuances - you can just take what you dish out - I am tired of being attacked personally by you, while you spew BS and disrespect with every accusation of falsehood against me.

ONE MORE TIME, from a position of honesty and integrity and also backed up by my words on the matter:

I MADE NO RACIAL ISSUE OF DOKIC and you cannot show that I did as there is none. I wrote paragraph upon paragraph about the stage parent...and you pick up the race card because the only tennis stage dads of women in tennis I know and compare are white....talk about a stretch. Understandable if you could list the famous non-white stage parents that I could have used instead, unfortunately for me the ones that came to mind did so because Dokic is Australian and we follow her here and Pierce's came to little old NZ and she was interviewed and yes commentary surrounding her history was also apparent. They also talk a lot about it at the french open, because everyone wants her to win there as a french woman and everyone should know how hard she has worked and how far she has come. I am sorry that it is so unbelievable to you, but again you prove my point that you are so pre-occupied with race you see it everywhere. Gee I wish that pre-occupation would extend to racists as well...I keep saying, attack the racists, reduce racism, no race card to play. Ignoring step one and two...is a little bit strange...but not if you pretend racists and racism does not really exist right?

You have continually attacked my right to speak on any matter including race - you belittle my exposure, my analysis, my recall, my facts, my understanding, my right to speak from another position and on it goes.

I realise that you do not speak from any position of authority - you display no great sense of knowledge, You have no redeeming qualities of analysis that make me want to hear your words. You speak of hateful behaviour and exhibit it, you call people liars without proof and then expect people to believe you. You antagonise and challenge and engage people hoping they will go away and then accuse them of being so involved in issues you sink your teeth into. You misquote, misread, misinterpret and manipulate points to try to win. What are you winning exactly? Certainly not respect for arguments of merit, because you have to twist and bend them to make any points.

I do not care what you resort to....all those bullying tactics will make me stronger, because it is clear that the moral base you stand on disintegrates while mine gets reinforced. I take pride in the knowledge of what my beliefs are based on, they are based on non-judgemental assessments that people can evolve and grow from that which defined their youth, it is my recurring theme. Over and over again, I believe in that for most people the best is yet to come and over and over again you have attacked that right by suggesting I condone criminalism OJ and bad behaviour. You also think I disregard history. BS again, I can incorporate history in my arguments because it proves my point that improvements can be seen in the Williams sisters over time.

I realise that you have every right to hate the Williams...Go ahead. That defines you and it is apparent throughout this thread how much you hate them for the deeds of the past and even this incident. You let hate govern your analysis which feeds your predispostion, I will let information feed mine. So far, I can prove there has been a marked improvement in the girls professionalism and attitude over time. I guess when you learn to respect my right to believe that you can stop challenging me in an effort to reduce everything to race.

I no longer have any interest in the opinions of those do not live by the standards they set for others. That does not mean that I will let any more of your bull@!$%# stand. I am not afraid to concede good points or when I am wrong, but you will not attack my integrity any longer and get a free pass. I give as good as I get - get the gloves on...cos the early stuff was a warm up. You sanctimonious @!$%#. Let us play on your level now...

LOL. You are so comical. I've shown you the very words you've written, yet you still deny it. There is no hope. Whatever. I'm sure you'll make your little section of the world a better place with all the condoning, pardoning, hoping, wishing, and understanding of how nobody should be judged for their actions because, hopefully, they might change one day. More power to you. have a good life. But before I go, let me reiterate: I've copied the very words you've written, yet you still deny. How desperate and pathetic is that? And you failed to even touch on the Martina Navratilova quote, or your statements regarding Blake and Sharapova. Are you still contending that your remarks don't imply racism. I'm sure I'll have a big guffaw about this later.....right after I vomit. Take care.

Ha! you keep the jokes coming. You don't need to review what I say, you can make it up as you go, you can ignore everything except your own opinion, that's okay. your opinion isn't worth much anymore, it lacks a certain integrity.I guess that is why you cannot recognise intergrity when you see it...LOL.

Guess all you can do is spew vomit, not much else up there to work with.

Hey - you sure are a hypocrite and a liar - you had to use the words implication and implied especially with Dokic, because you had nothing factual..or not my exact words as you suggest.......which means you did not simply quote me...you misinterpreted me...LMAO...guess that makes you some kind of genius...

hey at some point you even used a bus reference I never even made...but since it is all framed to produce the illusion you need to satisfy your limited mental capacity....I don't much mind anymore. I mistakenly thought there was normal person under the ego. When I realised you had few standards you could draw on that you actually honoured yourself I realised you then became irrelevant. It matters not what you think about Serena or me...it has no bearing on her success, her life or mine. I guess you can just keep bitching and whining like it matters...when clearly it doesn't.

That must be really irritating..people like you cry like babies and still Serena keeps on playing and winning and being successful - I guess because you are irrelevant in the scheme of things.

Keep up with the self importance, you gotta get it from somewhere little man.

Look, in most team sports, you say certain things to an official, you get ejected and perhaps suspended.  Here, a point was awarded her opponent.  It was, unfortunately, match-point.  But, she'd already been given a warning after she broke her racket earlier in the match and should have known better.  

And, as far as this being "...a sporting event, not a character assessment," part of participating in a sporting event is the display of sportsmanship; And, when judging one's sportsmanship, we are assessing one's character on the field of play.  If one cannot control one's self on the field of play, there are consequences to be paid.  Serena Williams learned that last night.  Should we be telling today's youth that it is OK to throw a temper tantrum when they do not agree with a call.

sure Charles, let's just toss the rule book out the window.....who really needs the judges anyway. Come on, seriously, all the players know the rules and need to play by them. Besides, even IF she didn't FF, her behavior is certainly no excuse for the highly inappropriate behavior. so to your point about the results being determined by the play, it was.......Clisters dominated the match and Serena obviously couldn't handle it.

the little asian woman did not assess a penalty to Serena so get off her back unless you just didn't agree with the call. She told the chair what was said because she was ordered to do so

Great sophmoric comment!

Charles Slack great sophmoric comment, your a hall of famer!

She made a threat of physical violence, not a death threat. There is a difference. She was punished according to the rules, as she should have been. This incident will, or at least it should, cost her lots of money.

Your prejudices are showing however, what does this have to do with Pelosi?

Yah really.....guys let me announce this now:

All trolls who wish to turn this thread into a political one leave now. Your comments WILL be collapsed.

You're kdding right?? Since when is threatening to stuff a fuzzy yellow, light weight tennis ball down someone's throat violent and a ...death threat??!!

Get over it! MacEnroe and Connors did just as bad or worse during their hey days.

Serena got her due. Let it be.

In football it very rarely costs the ENTIRE game. Same goes for Basketball, same goes baseball. What can make it even more frustrating is that all of the sports you described are team sports, whereas Tennis is a solo thing, so it is very easy to get extremely fired up about a wrong call (which it was) because everything rides solely on that one tennis player's performance. The call made was akin to calling holding or hooking in the last minute of play in hockey. It just isn't done, and when it is done, most teams and coaches have reactions FAR worse than what Serena did.

Also in golf, if a penalty is called, there is a chance that it could wind up being a two-shot difference in the score, AND for certain violations of the rules, the player is disqualified from the tournament and doesn't earn a dime. You don't hear anybody going up to the PGA or LPGA official and threatening them with violence!! Sometimes I think that there needs to be instant replay for tennis matches, then if they are shown the evidence that they violated the rules, the penalty is affirmed.

Bill,

You again? Did I spit in your cereal this morning or something? Did I call you an a@@hole in a previous life? You're not able to see the content of my comments because you've decided that somehow you'll be at my throat all day. Fair enough (not really but here goes).

I was simply pointing out, that in a sporting event....any sporting event but especially ones where INDIVIDUAL effort is all there is (ergo no teammates to fall back on when you are having a bad game) it is understandable that one can get extremely emotionally involved, especially when called for something that may not be entirely kosher. Am I defending her in her comments about making the judge swallow her balls (giggle) against her will. Heavens no! But I am saying that this kind of thing happens ALL the time in sports and no one makes a big deal out of it.

Try to keep your posts civil, as I'm trying very hard to do the same with you. You're not making it easy.

George, I appreciate your well thought out posts, and it is apparent that you are knowledgeable and educated, but I find your logic very misguided. I won't be as harsh as Bill though.

So you are saying that foot faults shouldn't be called when the match is close? Or just not called in the later stages of the match? Don't you believe they should be called anytime they occur? What about line calls? Should the close ones not be called when the match is close in the later stages? Should they only be called when they are a foot out?

Threatening violence doesn't happen all the time in sports as you say. When it does that player is ejected. Serena wasn't immediately ejected, she merely received a point penalty as determined by the RULES. It just so happens that the point penalty came on match point. Other team sports can be just as harsh: in volleyball if a player receives a red card on match point against, the contest is over, and it's happened many times on huge stages. In golf, players have lost championships due to things as silly as not signing their score card, or signing an incorrect score card, or kneeling on a towel while hitting a shot to keep their pants from getting dirty. All rules violations, and all with a steep price. Serena's classless tirade was FAR WORSE.

As long as there are apologists for these types of players and behaviors, the behavior will persist. Serena should be roundly criticized, fined and suspended. Her behavior should not be condoned or rationalized. Shame on you.

She has been fined censured and the penalty haslost the match. She has been treated like all players who break the rules. Good. McEnroe types are ugly and she is guilty of it once. She will learn.

Why does she deserve more punishment than others have - such as suspension. Why does she deserve special censure? Some players spit at players, or yell and abuse staff, or demand replacement linespeople by suggesting linespeople are biased yet she deserves worse treatment? Shame on you for failing to contextualise her actions in line with existing policies and past infringements.

This is totally out rageous, some of you guys think that it is okay to refer to any human bing as an Ape. Wow! She had an outburst, things happen, she apologized for it. Let's move on. BTW you might want to stay tuned into what comes next. Fuel has been added to the fire. Like it or not the girl is bad.

She is a product of the streets of Compton, but that does not define her character. I was fortunate enough to witness her and Venus in action with their Ronald McDonald house Charity tour. They were awesome. Totally giving to the kids in need. Think about the good she has done. She is a human and emotions flare up. It will probably happen again.

As far as the line judge goes, I can guarantee she will not be a judge anymore. They are not going to allow her to assist in throwing another match.

Any questions, I can answer. Tennis is one of my favorite past times.

George,

about a wrong call (which it was)

you need to look at it again, it was a correct call, she stepped on the line during the serve.

Jae-jae, Tennis may be your favorite past time, and that's great. But being an apologist for Serena just because she's done some good outside the sport is ridiculous. But I've heard the same arguments for OJ because he rushed for some good yards, and for Woody Allen because he's made some good movies. There will always be apologists for bad behavior, and it's you apologist who fuel the behaviors. If these people where shamed instead of heralded, there would be far less recidivism. That will never happen.

The great baseball coach John Scolinos (for whom I had the honor of playing), had a fairly famous quote, "If you want to know someone's true character, check them on a bad day." Serena showed her true character, as she has countless times before.

As far as the line judge? She did nothing wrong, other than doing her job. Serena was called fom the other baseline for foot faults. She was called throughout the tourney for foot faults. Should all those linespeople not be allowed to work also? Good God! You cannot be serious!

So John McEnroe is an @!$%#? I think he seems quite nice now, measured and fun but seriously - he is just a complete @!$%#? On his bad days he was diabolical and now he can be nothing else but that? There might be a problem with defining people by such trite quotes about character assessments.

No one suggests she acted well, or that she should not be punished. I just react to the idea that she is defined by it. If she is then we all are...and on bad days rational great people can crack. I have, better lock me away from my child who has only seen the nurturing part of me beacuse the real part lurks inside ...oh what utter tripe. I am defined by the total of events I engage in, not only by my mistakes errors and bad days. They contribute to my development and improvement, they do not define me nor should anyone else be defined forever. Bet you cannot hold yourself or family to the same standard you apply to her.

OJ beat his wife for years....that is what defines him...a pattern of behaviour. So far the linespeople are not lining up to all share the history of Serena abuse. Get over yourself.

So if OJ only hit her once or twice, that would be ok? We should just forget it? Ok, now I get it. It's so crystal clear now. Thanks.

Just to be clear and since we are talking hypothetically if OJ had hit her once and then learned never to do it again, and she was never hit again and lived to tell the tale ...yeah that would be okay with me. Sorry for such wishful thinking but I bet it would have been okay with her too. In that same hypothetical, if he did it twice - sorry that would mean it would be time for jail.

You cannot be defined by one moment - just to be clear. You are defined by many. If Serena Williams did it again, I would lose all respect for her. Right now I feel disappointment and anger, but as I have no right to judge her entier being, having failed my perfection test, I will not. She is usually deferential to calls and even when commentators say how little the Williams challenge calls, I think she is normally fine. If she starts a pattern then more sanctions are needed, if not then leave her be.

Just for final clarity, comparing OJ to Serena is ridiculous, and you know it. Yelling at a linewoman does not a criminal make.

Chasencash, Ok, so he only hits her once and says he'll never do it again. That's cool, huh? Ok, now I get where you're coming from. Very sad, but I get it. So the first time he beats her up is ok, it's only the SECOND time he should go to jail. Interesting. I guess Serna should be able to curse and threaten officials all she wants then and get a pass, cuz she's not actually hurting anyone. I guess if she hit the lady but said she'd never do it again that would be ok in your convoluted world. Why are we even discussing this then. Apparently, people can do whatever they want as long as they say they won't ever do it again.

BTW, Serena HAS done it before, this is just the first time it's been so publicly noticed. She had a meltdown in Key Biscane years ago, but it wasn't during a televised match. She had a similar incident at the French (one of the reasons the French still hate her and cheer against her). She did it in the WTA championships in LA a few years ago in a RR match. But she never killed anyone, so all cool, right?

And yes, yelling and threatening someone with violence does a criminal make.

Do not be ridiculous, you are arguing without much integrity when you resort to a attempts at trying to direct my answers in order to discredit me. Best case scenario - no hitting. You asked if I would be happy if OJ specifically had hit her once or twice..and never again. Given the real scenario I chose the lesser evil and anyone would have wished for a different outcome in that situation.

Sorry if people can threaten to harm maim and kill their loved ones and not get arrested, then cleary even the police understand the differences between empty threats and real ones. Unfortunately the law is such that real threats are sometimes perceived too late. In this case I am banking on it - the police do not need to send out a guard on the lineswoman.

BTW did those incidences of meltdowns involve violent threats? Or were they just frustrated melt downs like we see of many players. Safin - melt down king. If they involved threats against the ref, they would be widely reported....So that was a a silly or desperate point. SHOW me the money, not the end of the rainbow. Where has Serena made violent threats, and if you cannot point to any...stop inferring to them.

Chasencash, I don't need to direct your answers. You're doing a good job of that yourself, and in the process, discrediting your arguments to the rational world. You said that if OJ had beat her only once or twice, but said he'd never do it again, then that would be ok. Those are your words and your rationale. In my perfect world, he would have been jailed, and preferrable beaten to a pulp while in there. That's just me. You are perfectly allowed to use those words to discredit me if you like.

People can't threaten to harm, main and kill their loved ones and not get arrested. Such threats are punishable by law (at least in this country. Are you in Saudi Arabia, perhaps), and ther offender would certainly be arrested and tried IF the other person was credible and pressed charges, or if the threats were actually heard or witnessed. Police don't get to make the call. Where the hell are you from?!?

So a threat is ok if no violence is involved or follows, huh? So the guy who was just arrested and will probably do Federal time for wearing a sandwich sign that said something like, "Obama lies. Death to liars" should get off scott free without punishment. So if one threatens the life or person of a world leader it's ok, as long as they really don't do it. I see.

No, the meltdowns from Serena didn't involve threats of violence. That's specifically why this one is so serious. If she had done it before, then those would have been serious, as it would have been had ANY other player threatened an official. Three years ago (I think. Don't hold me to that....it might have been 2 years ago), Caroline Wozniaki -as the second seed- was DEFAULTED immediately from the girls singles at the US Open for cussing out an official and making far less threatening remarks. Hey, maybe we are onto something. Maybe it's not racism, but actually prejudice against #2 seeds.

So no, the meltdowns didn't involve violence. I was giving examples of Serena's poor, deplorable behavior. I thought you were asking for examples of those times, not of just violence. So once again, in your mind, the pattern of bad behavior hasn't been met because she never actually threatened anyone.

Yeah, ya did and you know it. You asked me a silly question in order to judge me, you were not looking for clarity at all, you simply wanted to sarcastly pretend that I condone violence if it happens once or twice. That would be incorrect. However as we were talking about OJ and we all know the outcome of that deal, I dreamed a different scenario as a better scenario to the real one....Sue me...

Best case scenario no hitting.

No on deserves to be hit ever. Stop trying to pretend I condone violence, when you know I am simply looking at what would have been a better outcome from a terrible situation...One that can never be realised.

Did you ask do you think hitting anyone is okay once or twice, I would have said NO. But in OJ's case I took the opportunity to look at the best case scenario if he had just hit her once or twice.

Also, the crimes are not equitable in scale, no matter how much goes into trying tot build the hype for more illogical judgements. You talk about others logic...I am beginning to get a clear picture of you and the venom you see is reflected in the venom you project.

Finally balderdash - you were wrong again. I said she had never threatened anyone before, you implied she had by using lesser infringements, infringements that a great many of players are guilty of. Jankovitch is lovely but can be a little bit fragile with officicals. Sorry you can imply this threat incident happens all the time, but as you cannot prove it, then BS.....stop trying to create an illusin of it in order to sway the argument. I was specific, she has never ever ever threatened an offical and you counter with yes and note meltdowns. So no...clever attempt at deflection but no substance to behad. She has never threatened any official before, sorry if that interferes with your hate fest, I find that such attitudes do not need much information to continue however...so on we go.

PS: What is with the Saudi Arabia comment? Threats may be illegal in the US, especially terrorist threats, but few prosecutions result...sorry you just have to follow domestic abuse cases in the USA to understand that...no matter where you live. So many threats are made and police have neither the resources to prosecute or the priority to do so...not when they struggle to police violent crime. Sad but true, unless you want to set a precedent for Serena while other women who are under serious threats must wait for more serious infractions to occur before their cases get looked into. Yep that would be some kind of special treatment there. Thousands of domestic abuse threats ignored and often with fatal consequences, and resources sent to arrest a woman who yelled abuse at an official. Not very practical.

Poor deplorable behaviour happens all the time in tennis, unless you want to keep pretending it doesn't...people do not spit, yell, cuss, get angry...Oh wait....they do???? Damn them all to hell if they would not ruin a good argument.

This is getting tedious. Your arguments have so many holes in them, not only in logic, but in fact as well. I'll leave you with your opinions, and you and the 17% can continue to be apologists.

Got nothing huh - well wrong yet again because I clearly voted that she deserved point deduction...

must get tedious making stuff up to make your points. Am sorry if complexity confuses you.

I hope you boycott John McEnroe too, or at least attempt to have him ousted as a commentator.

Race has nothing to do with her behaviour - shame on you.

Chasencash, Georgia didn't say Race was the cause of her behavior. She simply stated the she was not only an embarrassment to herself, but to our race. I'm not sure if Georgia meant the human race, or the Black race, but she mentioned "our race", so if it was the Black race, I assumed she is stating the Serena's behavior is an embarrassment to Blacks. She mentions nowhere that Serena's behavior was due to the fact that she is Black. Is it not reasonable to assume that Hawaiians may be embarrassed if one of their own did not demonstrate the Aloha Spirit. Or how about Swedes being embarrassed by the athlete who threw his medal to the mat during the Olympics after he felt he was wronged. Or Turks being embarrassed by their athlete who attacked a referee?

Why is it that if anyone mentions the word RACE, everyone goes into a tizzy? And while I'm at it, why is it that when a Black player is criticized, it's automatically racism?

When people bring it up. She mentions race as if Serena represents her race. In this instance she represents bad temper and race has nothing to do with it. John McEnroe is proof of that - you don't hear people referring to his behaviour racially do you? I get tired of the belief that race has anything to do with this.

Serena made an error, a bad one, she was punished. Now we remove her from consideration as an athletic marvel cos she lost her cool? That is simplistic judgmental nonsense. If she continues to act badly, she should be so censured but to assess her from this one incident is hysterical. Show some context people.

We all want people to represent us, but that is our problem not theirs. If you want perfection, strive for it yourself and when you have attained it, demand it in others.

National representation carries certaiin repsonsibilities as does racial representation - but stop throwing the baby out with the bathwater and accept people have failings and once punished, that is it. Banishing them from sight is just overkill, is this women teaching her children that people cannot make mistakes and recover to live productively, or is she stating such errors are unforgiveable and Serena has been reduced to this one deed. That is like saying you are defined by one such outburst and have no other redeeming qualities...absolutely ridiculous. McEnroe was an ass and now he ia a measured commentator... are we saying he had no ability to be anything but an ass? Ridiculous. It must be wonderful to be perfect and have such high standards that our children will no doubt fail and will then feel they have no hope of redemption.

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could not agree with you anymore on every point. well said alan

Right but that is not the only reason why she gets booed. Read your own countrymen's comment (unless you wish to cherry pick which you acknowledge) on Fox Sports and many comments have to do with her looks or sometimes so really subjective made up rationale.

agree and she needs to have her mouth washed out too

which tournaments do you watch? Without the Williams sister there aren't any good American women or men players at this time. So she lost her temper, so what!!!!! He(she_) who is without sin should cast the first stone. And I don't believe any of you people hare without sin. It's over she apologized. SHUT UP!

Actually, McEnroe was disqualified from the Australian Open in 1990 due to his behavior in his fourth round match.

The rules are in place for a reason. A certain level of decorum is expected from the players. In most other sports - as has been mentioned above - her behavior would have resulted in an immediate ejection (though, I guess that was the end result). If, as you say, she should not have been penalized the point for her outburst because it was match point, does that mean she could have said/done anything at that point? What if she had thrown a tennis ball at the line judge? Her racket? Would that have been egregious enough to warrant immediate action?

Whether it's the first point of the match or last, the rules need to be enforced uniformly. She was already warned for breaking her racket on the court.

Can you cite an instance where John McEnroe made physical threats against a linesperson? This is WAAAY past anything Johnnie Mac ever did (which I don't condone).

I enjoy watching Serena Williams play, but not assessing serious consequences for that kind of conduct is setting a really bad precedent for the sport.

And BTW, those of you questioning the foot fault call need to get your eyes checked.

well said. its always her doing. no one ever beats the all mighty williams.

But Tyler, racism does not exist within tennis circles or discussion, it only exists in the Williams' sisters minds...or so I keep getting told.

Oops, one should not write when rushed, it isn't becoming or worthy. Apologies to all...facetiousness is never a good look...

yes her interview was pathetic. they were asking her about an incident that had occured literally a few minutes earlier and she wanted to claim that it was all in the past and there was nothing for her to say. She has a severe personality disorder

I remember him getting into hot water all the time. Not sure about the points, but that was quite some time ago. Rules about that may have changed. Possibly because of him!

Actually, he was once disqualified from the Australian Open for his conduct.

Correct. And he's also been defaulted from Senior Events. So much for mellowing with age.

Totally agree. Whether it is a mystery injury or just a plain whooping, I have never heard them concede their opponents played well. Even after Nadal's match and his abdomen injury, he still talked about how well Del Portro played. That is class.

Totally agree.  Whether it is a mystery injury or just a plain whooping, I have never heard them concede their opponents played well.  Even after Nadal's match and his abdomen injury, he still talked about how well Del Portro played.  That is class. 

What do you mean get away with this?

Under the rules she was sanctioned. End of story.

By the way, how many times was Mcenroe suspended?

I pretty much agree with all you've said. The winner here is indeed Ms. Clijsters. Its easy to forget about her effort in this ridiculously blown-out-of-proportion fiasco.

With regard to the grunting, that's been an issue floating around ever since Monica Seles made equally pornographic grunts and screeches. I can't say I mind (evil grin) but how does one stop an athlete from grunting with effort just out of curiosity?