I agree with your sentiment, but the details are in the biology. The question is whether her condition gives her an unfair advantage over other competitors. The answer is probably no.

The two most common causes of internal testes with external female genitalia are both unambiguously considered female from all points of view: personal gender identity, social interaction, athletic eligibility, etc. It is probably surprising to most people that a small but significant number of women are chromosomally XY. These women often don't learn that they are XY until they try to start a family---expecially women with complete AIS. The second most common cause is 5-alpha-reductase deficiency, and women with this condition are also allowed to compete.

There are rarer conditions, and some of those are considered to give the athlete an unfair advantage in women's competition. There just is not enough information publicly available. We should all reserve judgment.

5-alpha-reductase deficiency

Externally she appears female, but internally she is a man. She has testes, no ovaries and no uterus. It is awful she found out when the world did. It takes a pretty sophisticated exam, labs and ultrasound to find this out. I doubt her family knew and I doubt she understood why she looks so manly. She will probably be advised to have the internal testes removed, because of the increased risk of cancer. But it is up to her and her family. Most families in the U.S. learn this when the child is an infant and make these decisions when the child is young, prior to puberty. She will never get over this devastating and embarrassing news. I pray for her.

Its was never stated that she doesn't have a uterous, she should be able to compete with both sexes if she wants. No one has the right to judge this poor person, no matter what. She is still loved by GOD, he is the only one that can truelly judge her. Something like this should be left alone, not observed by all. If this girl wanted people to know her situation then she would have said something. But she probably didn't want it talked about. Its an embarrassing situation. I am on her side to this situation. She needs to be left alone, just like her family. It really isn't her fault she was born that way.

Lori316 your post is heartfelt and sympathetic and I would agree with the sentiment, but it's not really to the point of this issue. If the committee decides to ban her from women's competitions it won't be because she "cheated"--this is not a judgement on her soul or on her as a person. It is a judgement on an athletic event. The seperation of male and female events is not done by gender identity, it is done by biology. If she has testees producing testosterone as the article indicates, then it would seem incorrect to have her compete in a field of individuals with ovaries producing estrogen. Her mindset, her external sexual indicators, these things are not at issue. This argument is even different from the previous Olympic issue of the Australian sprinter who had prostheses on his legs. This is about the fundemental seperation of the sexes in the events. If you want to argue there should be no seperation, that is fine though it will be an uphill battle.

Perhaps others are arguing in a more negative fashion or implying she did something wrong. I don't think she did anything wrong, I just believe that since the athletic events are seperated by sexes, in this case they need to catagorize her with the male competitors given she has the part of male anatomy which would actually make an affective difference in events. The fact that her external genitals or other indicators are female plays no part.

Actually, Lori316, it was stated she has neither a uterus or ovaries. The only reproductive organs she has are internal testes. Those testes are what's responsible for her overabundance of testosterone, which she wouldn't have if the testes weren't there and she had overies and a uterus. If she wants to be able to compete as a female, she needs to have the testes removed. It's not fair to female athletes who compete without the advantage of all that additional testosterone.

Given that the article doesn't provide any information about the runner's chromosomes I think it's a bit early to be making any call at all. Or is the argument that in order to compete in sports as a woman you can't have more than a certain level of testosterone even if it occurs naturally? Or is it that your gender is defined solely by the internal portion of your reproductive system?

<sarcasm>Just checking so we can test all athletes and make sure that women athletes that don't meet the criteria are disqualified from being participants and from being women so that people can see the world in black and white.

Perhaps we shouldn't just have male and female athletes but have estrogen/testosterone ranges like weight classes in boxing. That'll make a level playing field for everyone, right? </sarcasm>

Then steroids should be allowed. They are really nothing more then synthetic testosterone. Either remove the testes and place her on estrogen therapy or ban her like any other steroid user.

All of you blathering about this athlete's condition not having been a choice and that it's the way s/he is and so on are missing the point entirely. It's definitely a shame for Semenya, but the bottom line is that this condition imparts an unfair advantage over the other athletes. That's all there is to it.

It isn't a question of gender. Gender is a psychological construct. This is about chemistry, about sex. None of you would be arguing for Semenya to be allowed to continue competing if it had been you who had lost the race because of this.

First off RaH-997709 it is blabbering and secondly what makes you the expert on what the point really is in this conversation? People are entitled to their opinion without you regarding them unimportant just as I regard your comments as nothing more than blabber and unimportant. Further more I find all all the other comments interesting and this is a blog where all others are entitled to their opinion and you should respect that.

Actually you are wrong about what the question is about because it does not say if she should be banned because of chemistry, the question just ask if she should be banned and they are expressing why they thinks she should or should not. That is what the point is about.

"People are entitled to their opinion without you regarding them unimportant just as I regard your comments as nothing more than blabber and unimportant."

That didn't even make any sense.

I'm sorry you're upset about the apparent developments in this case, but your indignation does nothing to change the fact that Caster Semenya's gender identity is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not s/he should be allowed to continue to compete. Would YOU like to be made to compete against someone who has an unfair advantage over you simply to spare that person's feelings? I know I wouldn't and I doubt very much that you would, either.

One factor many people are missing: There are cash and other prizes involved here. The substitution of one Gender for another goes back decades in the Olympics. Also, how about the women who are thus cheated after devoting so much time and effort into their training. The woman who came in "second" is the real winner and should be given the medal and any prize. You do know how many MILLIONS of dollars are involved in professional sports and commercial endorsements--don't you?

As far as I can see, the point is really now moot. If it is decided that she can complete with women, every win she gets will be applauded with "Of course she won- it's because of the testosterone." This poor kid can't win no matter what is decided, and that is the truly sad thing. The fact that she is being dragged through the mud- which is so CLEARLY validated by some of the moronic and downright evil posts that have been made- is beyond disgraceful. I feel for her, I really do. NOBODY should have to be held up to public scrutiny of this kind due to an accident of birth. I just hope she comes out of this with her mind and dignity somewhat intact.  This was handled SO badly, and the IAAF and the media should be ashamed of themselves.

"If it is decided that she can complete with women, every win she gets will be applauded with "Of course she won- it's because of the testosterone." This poor kid can't win no matter what is decided, and that is the truly sad thing. The fact that she is being dragged through the mud- which is so CLEARLY validated by some of the moronic and downright evil posts that have been made- is beyond disgraceful. I feel for her, I really do. NOBODY should have to be held up to public scrutiny of this kind due to an accident of birth. I just hope she comes out of this with her mind and dignity somewhat intact. This was handled SO badly, and the IAAF and the media should be ashamed of themselves."

Agreed.

RaH

I don't expect you to understand anything due to the fact that you automatically think that I actually have the time to get mad over a blog. What you should understand is you are not an expert on anything but the pure ignorance that you are showing and the fact that your statement shows that you are easily upset about other people opinions.

You are unreasonable when it comes to respecting other people and it shows in your blogs. Another thing my statement made sense and you understood it enough to respond what a stupid comment that I was mad. At least you did make me laugh when I read that I was mad.

Lol. Whatever you say.

If you don't mind my asking, who made you an expert at determining who is and is not an expert?

<sarcasm>Just checking so we can test all athletes and make sure that women athletes that don't meet the criteria are disqualified from being participants and from being women so that people can see the world in black and white.

GTMac, I realize this was said with sarcasm, but it's not off base. Until 1999, the International Olympic Committee required gender verification for all females. This went on for 30 years! This was required to find male imposters (none discovered)--but what the did find was women with these rare genetic abnormalities.

In the 1986 games in Atlanta, 8 of 3387 females had positive results. But it was determined that they had androgen insensitivity (couldn't utilize testosterone) or had undergone gonadectomy. All received gender verification certficates and were given permission to compete. I hope this athlete gets the some consideration.

Why could she not compete against the men? She has the same hormone levels as they do.

Some bloggers here show such a display of limited thinking, why "man"-kind continues barbarianism. At 18 years old I hardly understood that I was a "women", I really felt like a Girl -not a women (despite my curvaciousness), until my late 20's.

Physical changes do not make one who they are. NO ONE here has mentioned TRAINING as FEMALE athlete, including a LIFETIME of societal subjucation to a "norm".

This young women should be allowed to continue to compete as herself, without forced mutilation, if she can muster incredible CONFIDENCE and perhaps be a pioneer for a new mixed category for her beloved sport. Though until the International sports committee agrees to the communistic ideolgy of testing and picking the "athletes" as pre-schoolers. ALL The current athletes don't have their natural estrogen/testosterone levels checked do they?? Then there will be an issues on the AMOUNT of hormornes...so many "winners" will be disqualified -oh wait, who would actually need to compete then?

I vote that she should continue to compete as a women. Otherwise, they can stop anyone's dream of competition. Perhaps the South African's TRAINING program was superior than the other world competitors!

To: DASHBOARD and Debbie 519346, THANKS for your posts -we need to keep up our voices against the 'keithbrown's' of the world -who I hope does not have children.

Oh -One more thing I need to clarify to my post(#93) I usually felt like and considered myself a "Tom-boy" at (American) schools since I enjoyed the monkey-bars, running around the fields, swimming, and playing with the boys, until my junior year in high-school. I also refused to wear dresses-except that I had to for church(cause you should should underwear while upside down on the play equipment).

I think Caster should not be allowed to compete as a woman, but that is a separate issue from how the case has been handled. The IAAF broke their own rule that gender testing should be anonymous. On top of that, it now seems that the SA coaches didn't tell her she was being tested for gender earlier when the South Africans looked into it. (She thought it was just a drug test.) Not knowing what was going on, she went to the world championships and now her story is being aired internationally. If there had been some frank discussion earlier, she could have decided whether to stay home until the tests were finished, thus avoiding all this public embarrassment. That's pretty poor treatment by people she trusted.

I think she should be able to keep the win, because she didn't know and she wasn't cheating. But her anatomy is not clearly female. In fact, the title of the article breaks it down pretty clearly. She has both, but the hormones her testes (male organs) are producing is testosterone. She doesn't have ovaries to counteract that. She can continue to identify as a woman, but if she wants to race as-is, it should have to be as a man.

Duh, did you read? Her anatomy is mixed. She is clearly nothing. Yes, i feel very sorry for her. Solution, have her testicles removed, problem solved.

Okay "keithbrown", we will remove her testicles along with yours. Problem solved.

Keithbrown might have an idea there. If she wants to compete as a female having her testes removed might work. Although that would be a hard decision if I were her. Plus she would probably need to have estrogen therapy which can be dangerous. Hard call, hard call. I just hope she knows that people still feel for her even if they don't want her to compete against other women.

No I am not suggesting that anything should be forced on her. Not at all! And this has absolutely nothing to do with the evil of female castration "mutilation" of which I am too familiar with. That is where the genitalia are mutilated so that a woman will never have pleasure from sex and many die from infections or complications from childbirth. Which is done to little girls against their will. This woman having her internal testes removed is not even close to the same thing. I had to have a radical hysterectomy from cancer which would be something comparable and I have to say it was nothing close to what happens to those little girls.

I only mean that if she wants to continue to compete against regular females this could be an option for her. Notice that I said this would be a hard decision for her. I was only thinking about her well being when I said what I did. If competing is that important to her, as I'm sure it is, then this might be something she could consider.

Please read my whole comment before attacking me.

Why? Why would anyone remove a part of their body that they are born with? Removing testicles, internally or externally is castration. This is almost ludicrous. It's vile and disgusting and it should be a crime against humanity to even allow this as a viable option for an athlete who was born with it. If you truly believed that- you would be calling "her" an "it" and obviously everyone has agreed on one thing- "it's" a female.

I'm always surprised when we decide to judge other people. There really should be a class in school called the "acceptance studies" in order to help children understand acceptance and tolerance in society. This argument is void and her rights should be acknowledged as a female competitor.

Human rights prevail over opinions.

Women with internal testes usually have them removed because of the significant risk of testicular cancer.

@ Dashboard. Your ignorance is astounding!

It's rather obvious that everyone has not agreed on what "it" is.

Really? You are surprised when people judge people? Pull your head out of the sand and go into society for once. You might be surprised by just how stupid you sound.

This isn't about tolerance, which for ignorance like yours I have none, but about being given a natural advantage over the female gender in its sport. I guess you just didn't read the story, which is exactly what pathetic liberals like yourself always do. Ignore the core of the story and create controversy over nothing.

Now go stick your head back in the sand.

bukanoco I'm torn on whether to mark your post "Inflammatory" or "No Value". That's not the way to go about making whatever your point was. Dashboard, I've heard something akin to what mathrec said--that having the testes medically removed is a preventative health issue. And just as with Lori316 I think you make the mistake of seeing this as a judgment on the runner as a person or a human being. It is simply a determination that must be made to compete in athletic events. This may be an unusually complicated and tough example, but "judgements" on athletes happen all of the time in organized sports and anyone who argues she should not be allowed to compete because she is a "cheater" or some other such thing is not arguing the same point I'm trying to make. For the athletic competition it must be a quantitative, not a qualitative decision. If she has testes producing testosterone, she should compete with males. Notice I use "she", as each person can decide their own identity, but it doesn't change with the committee's decision on whether or not she can compete.

ah, Bukanoco, your bias is showing. I saw not one word that makes dashboard a liberal, conservative or other. However, since you brought it up, its out of character for a conservative to give a woman control over her own body. You don't want the government to control anyone, yet, conservatives definitely come down on the side of pro-life. How is this any different. I said, in my short comment, that I felt that she has an unfair advantage over other women because of the testosterone her body naturally makes. IN all sports, steroids, among them chemicals that either use actual testosterone or the chemical equivalent to enhance athletic prowess are banned. Of course this was not intentional on her part, and her case, I would think is very rare indeed. That being said, it was quite obvious, if you watched the races she's been in, she definitely has an unfair advantage of other women who do not have the same anatomy. I definitely feel for her predicament, and if she had the source of testosterone removed, I would have no trouble at all with her racing with her chosen gender. I do have a problem with one person defaming someone else because of a perceived bias.

I'm an independent, which means I don't let people tell me what to think, I do the research and try to come to a reasoned conclusion. The partisanship being shown by yourself is, in a word, disgusting. Get off your high horse and come join the rest of the human race, that you so obviously think so ill of.

How do so many of you know what her anatomy looks like? Or what sex organs she does or does not possess? The article stated that she has internal testes, and does not have ovaries. The South African Sports Minister said a lack of a womb should not disqualify her. Anyone mention a vagina, or anything else? No mention of her chromosomal makeup, either.

If you were to base an opinion on what is here, you should say "not enough information". But if you used only what is here, and added other subjective observations, such as not usually dressing as a woman, the unnatural-for-a-woman musculature, how can you really say she is a woman because she identifies as a woman? Does she really? And if any other woman competing had the apparent levels of testosterone in her system that she must, they would be disqualified for doping. Just because hers occurs "naturally" does not make it a non-subject in determining if she should be allowed to compete as a women. She obviously has male sex organs that give her male characteristics - low voice, body shape, musculature - and an obvious unfair, and unnatural for a female, advantage. And you think that nobody in the South African sports community noticed the obvious signs? How desparate are they for a winner that they should let it have gone this far, a world championship? Did they think that becasue they said she was a woman that, well, she's a woman?

This should be a no-brainer. She cannot compete on a level playing field as a woman. Her condition certainly is not her "fault", and should not be held against her, but it does make a difference where competition is concerned.

Languishing is right -- the current testosterone level is not the only issue. Her body structure, hands, hip size, etc., have already developed, and that won't change regardless of future hormone exposure. It's not just current testosterone that makes a man faster, it's the narrow hips, the additional muscle, etc., that formed in the past. Does Caster's body LOOK female?? That's not going to change even if she has those testes removed. (Well, she would likely lose some muscle mass....)

Being male is beyond my control. By your logic, I should then be allowed to compete as a women, if I identify as one. If every part of my psyche and my being is female, since my "male status" is beyond my control, I should be allowed to compete as a female? Give me a break.

Do you have a vagina? Apparently this athlete does.

Debbie,

No, but that is not the argument that Conus made. Conus jsutified his position by the fact that "she" feels and identifies as a woman. Sure she has a vagina, and a set of intermal cajunas, to match.

As to your queston, no. If I did, I would also be a hermaphrodite, like this poor person, and have to compete in the Hermaphrodite Olympics. (I am sure thats next.)

You obviously have little insight into the issues facing hermaphrodites. Read the article again, and you will read that she has BOTH sexes, which makes her equally male and female. If any testicles should be removed, why don't we start with yours. Maybe then you could empathize with the right head and have a much more open mind. Get a clue.

keithbrown has little knowledge of anything beyond his own ego and lack of human tolerance.

Mike it is disrespectful for you to call this woman a "him". She is a she because she sees herself as female. Although I agree that she has an unfair advantage that doesn't mean I would want to disrespect her. Especially since this issue affects her so publicly.

just as a thought, have any of the other female runners been tested or was she just singled out because she looked "manly"? what are the levels of the testosterone? are they that much higher than the other female athletes? some people on this board, clearly male, really need more info before passing judgement. she is female, as her mind, brain, have told her. another question, serena williams, the tennis star, sure looks male to me! has she been tested?

Mike- you sure sound like you have an identity crisis yourself. Why don't you look in the mirror and fix the things you need to work on before judging others...if you can measure up to it.

Gotta agree, Mike, her outward appearance is that of a woman, she was raised in a poor country, and there was nothing in her history, that I'm aware of, that would clue her into the fact that she had male testes. your derision of others is....reprehensible. Try to regain some civility. I've made my views clear, I think its a reasoned approach. I would say in addition, that she won the championship, and should be able to keep it. However, now that new evidence has come to light, I think if she wants to compete as a woman, thats fine, but, she should lose the testes. The testosterone does give her a an unfair advantage over her competitors who do not have the same capacity, naturally or other. I also feel for this young woman, who is obviously dedicated to the sport she loves, and I have a feeling, that she might just believe the same way. I believe that someone that dedicated would not want the unfair advantage of having testosterone while her competitors did not. In more than one way, if I were in her shoes, that wold make me feel like I was "cheating" Now of course that its known that she has testes, and an unnatural level of testosterone for a female. This is about the biology, and not about the person. Anyone trying to make it more than that, is simply wrong.

Ciaara, you are right: testing should have been done long before the world championships. And the South Africa sports federation should have done it so that this would not happen. They should have known something was amiss when her times improved so dramatically in such a short period of time (not referenced int his articel, but documented elsewhere), and her appearance clearly gave indications of high levels of testosterone. If they were truly looking out for her best interests, they should have done something before now. This is not the first time questions were raised about her, but it is certainly the biggest forum, and was obviously going to be an issue. They did her a great disservice by not doing something.

But how she chooses to identify is not germane to the decision about whether she should be allowed to compete against other women. If she is not biologically a female - chromosomally, sex organs, hormone production - then the decision is obvious: no.

And while she may not have knowingly cheated, I susupect that her sports federation knew more than they are admitting. If they did, and if she did, then there was cheating.

Finally, some sense. Thanks.

Are we testing the testosterone levels of every woman competing? If so, who determines the maximum allotted levels? Next thing will be that some homosexual women have higher levels and they will be excluded. Think about equality and fair testing for everyone. Are there not medications she can take to reduce the level of testosterone, or would they consider allowing her to do so? Too many unanswered questions for us to make an unbiased judgment. For now, let South Africa be proud of their athlete!!!!

Homosexual women don't have more testosterone than straight women. Hormones don't play that big a part in our sexual identities. At least not after we get out of the womb that is. As far as I have read anyway.

Just because someone has high levels of testosterone doesn't mean the body can utilize it. Some people have androgen insensitivity.

It's like having hypothyroidism. You can have abnormally high levels of thyroid stimulation hormone, but that doesn't mean you have higher levels of thyroid hormones due to the same type of insensitivity.

It may be found that she has this type of insensitivity to testosterone, or, as other female athletes have done in this situation, she could have a gonadectomy.

Have her testicles removed...problem solved, then she can compete as a woman.

Here, here. I agree with that. Heartbreaking. But a quick 15 minute surgery to remove them, and the playing field is leveled. She should have no issue with this, as it will make her look more female, her gender of choice.

You're both sick. Pressuring intersexual people into surgery is nothing but pressuring them into genital mutiliation. How would you feel if someone wanted to make YOU have your balls removed. I am sure you'll have plenty of objection.

Keithbrown I like your callous opinions about life altering surgery. "a quick 15 minute surgery" very nice. It WOULD be an shorter surgery if they were external, but they're not. Nothing is quick and easy when surgeons are cutting into you. I agree with your end point that she should not be allowed to compete with females while having testosterone producing male sex organs (her external sex organs have absolutely no impact on this discussion) but the tone of your posts is far too flippant. I know its the intertoobs and this runner will never read these messages, but it's still a shabby way to talk about someone.

"Why should her uniqueness be considered unfair?"

Her uniqueness should be considered unfair when she has body parts not normally associated with her gender and that her fellow competitors don't have. If she had an extra leg she should also be banned from competition. If she has her testes removed that would solve the issue.

Did you read? She DOES have body parts no other women have ! Testicles ! Those are body parts.

What she calls herself is irrelevant. She is biologically half male. Save the tears. No one is forcing her to compete as a woman. She is free to keep the testicles and run with men. Her choice. That is what our nation is about....freedom of CHOICE....not privilege to the few, or the deformed.

Neanderthal.

Wow keith, it is people like you that cause so many of the problems in our society today. She is not from our nation, so that has nothing to do with this. And she is certainly not deformed. In fact, many societies, Native American included (the rightful owners of this country, who were never given freedom of choice), these people are revered as blessed for having both sexes. It gives them a greater insight, something you could benefit from. Neanderthal is an understatement.

Do you really believe that she didn't already know? When she didn't start to menstruation, she knew. She was seen by a doctor. I have a friend who is from South Africa. Semenya had access to clinics.

You say that like this only affects her. What about all the other women who have dedicated their life to get to this point and then they find out that there is no way they can win against this person because she is half male? Is it fair to give this one person what she wants while denying all these other women a chance? Would these other women be allowed to compete if they were doping with testosterone? No they wouldn't. While this is not her fault it has the same unfair results.

Keith, you are the epitome of what the rest of the educated world would call an "ignorant American". Truly.

No one is judging if Caster has the right to live as a woman - but whether or not it is acceptable for Caster to compete as a woman. And the competetive sports world has every right to judge that. She loves and excels - against women - because of the unfair advantage of testosterone produced by testicles; women don't do that. She (?) is free to live anyway she(?) chooses. But not to compete against women.

Both of you remind me of an beautiful quote from a most excellent movie.

Walter Sobchak: Am I wrong?
The Dude: No you're not wrong.
Walter Sobchak: Am I wrong?
The Dude: You're not wrong Walter. You're just an @!$%#.
Walter Sobchak: Okay then.

Absolutely. Bravo.

I agree that if she is not allowed to compete as she is in a female event, then she can certainly be given the option of surgical intervention in order to compete as a female, but this thread has quickly moved way beyond this core issue......

We are now talking about what makes a male male and a female female....by some arguments here, it seems that men are nothing more than women with testicles and testosterone and that women are defined as a lack of testicles and testosterone. What these arguments suggest that if I have my testicles surgically removed that I can no longer identify as a male and can never compete in male events...there are many men who have had surgery to remove their testicles ( cancer, trauma...etc) but who completely identify as male and always will.

Keith Brown....use a bit more sensitivity with this issue....its not as easy as you think. Sure the testosterone in her body may give her an advantage over other female athletes but that doesn't make her any less of a woman...It seems she has always identified as a woman and that is how we should address her...not as someone who doesn't fit into our limited binary gender identities.

No matter whether you have or don't have testicles or ovaries, there are still genetic tests and other physical examionations used to determine gender. But if you have do testicles, and produce testosterone at typically male levels, you are not eligible to compete against female athletes.

She will not look that much more feminine unless she receives estrogen. Plus what the testosterone has done to her body shape won't change that much. But it would still be more fair than it is now.

"She will certainly begin to look a heck of a lot more feminine as well."

Wow! Keith! You really are a class of your own as well! Congrats on using your brain as a worthy source of humanitarianism. I'm glad that it will be lost in the ether one day.

See this article to see how women detected at the Atlanta games were allowed to compete: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/OlympicGenderTesting.html

It was determined that they had androgen insensitivity (couldn't use the extra testosterone anyway) or had gonadectomies.

Keith, Considering that her facial structure, hands, hip size, etc., have already developed, it is doubtful whether she will ever look much "more feminine." Basically, she has developed like a boy, and that won't change regardless of future hormone exposure.