You try driving a stock car at around 180 miles per hour in well over 120 degrees temperature without air conditioning and full body suit for more than 4 hours. Que ignorante!!

Hey devil...let me ask you a simple question. What, in your mind defines the word "Athlete"? Let me guess your answer. A person has to jump high or far or run fast right!Or be able to catch or throw or hit a little ball, or throw an oblong shaped one. I'll give you a little clue here pal because obviously you have never had one....a clue I mean. There have been tons of instances in pro-am golf tournaments where gifted athletes in all the other professional sports have stated flatly that hitting a stationary golf ball in the direction you want it to go with any consistency is flat out the toughest thing they have ever tried. There are AT LEAST as many muscles in motion in the human body during a golf swing as there are in any other sport. Golfers aren't athletes huh??? Like I said...get a clue moron.

Forget it. Some people think that unless the participants wear a jock strap, it isn't a sport. The same people who claim golf isn't a sport are those whose only experience with it is drinking a 12 pack while fudging through 18 holes. They have never broken 100, let alone coming anywhere near par. As far as racing, It is more difficult and physically challenging than any of the stick-and-ball sports. In most any other sport the competition is on-on-one. In racing, it is each man (or woman) against 20, 30, or 40 others, all trying their best to prevent anyone else from winning. The toll it takes on a persons body is exceeded only by hockey and boxing. Most drivers have sustained concussions, broken bones, burns, and other trauma by the time they retire. A professional driver earns every penney they make by risking their life while competing. Stick and ball sports are for wimps by comparison.

Hey Devil, I have to agree with you on the golf not being a sport. This girlyboy Micsup comes up with that lame excuse all the time about hitting the little ball then walking after it as the faries in the background give him that gay clap.

Micsup were you cut from the football team when there were only 12 of you thet tried out?

Micsup and TR....you're confusing games of skill and feats of endurance with actual sport. Micsup, you say pro athletes have stated that hitting a white ball off a tee or off the ground and getting it to go where you want it to is harder than they thought it would be. And they'd be correct! It is hard to do....it takes years of practice to master that skill. But, it's also hard to bowl perfect games in bowling, or hit bullseyes over and over in darts or archery, or tiddly-winks.....you see where I'm going with this? Golf is a game of skill, that's not the issue. What is the issue is that golf, in my opinion, isn't a sport. Now, my definition of a sport is a game, involving players going against other players, using physical strength, skill and quickness to outscore your human opponents. There's no "sport" involved in knocking the daylights out of a small white ball with a club and getting it into a hole in as few strokes as possible. That's you against an inanimate object! Also, if I practice 8 hours a day for years, I will eventually become pretty good at golf. The same cannot be said if I practiced playing baseball, or basketball, or hockey, or soccer....oh I may develop the ability to hit a fastball, or throw a football accurately, or hit 90% of my freethrows....but what I may never fully develop is the gift of strength, speed or endurance needed to excel on a professional level in those sports.

Now, let's address Tribe_Rules' assertion that auto racing is a sport. This is just laughable! Aside from the same argument I had with golf, that if I got behind a wheel and practiced for hundreds of hours, I would most likely develop the skill set needed to become as good a driver as Richard Petty. As for the endurance factor, by your argument, my driving the Washington, DC beltway home from work on a 100+ degree day with no air conditioning makes me an athlete. I'll have to endure brutal heat, I'll have to weave in and out of traffic and maneuver myself so as to not get boxed in. Look....auto racing is as much a sport as horse-racing....the car and the horse are doing all the work! All you need is the skill to maneuver that car or that horse into coming across the finish line first.

Well, it's time for me to go take a nice, long steambath....hey, wait a minute.....since I can take steamy temps in excess of 150 degrees for a few hours while sitting on my a**, that makes me an athlete.....whoopie!!!

You have your opinion, other people have theirs. And far more people in this world consider golf and auto racing sports than not. By your own definition, "a sport is a game, involving players going against other players, using physical strength, skill and quickness to outscore your human opponents", you are admitting golf and racing are sports.

Your attitude is typical of armchair athletes.

ESPN has poker on now. I guess you will be saying that too is a sport.

T_R....dude....why all the hate?! You seem to be misunderstanding my view on what constitutes a sport and what doesn't. Take golf, for instance. You're not directly taking on your opposition on the field....the only thing that directly influences your score is the weather. You can take your time, plan your shot, pull your club from the back, take a sip of beer, walk up to the ball, step back and take another sip of beer, address the ball, wait for the wind to die down a little, curse at the wind, step back again because the wind's just a bit too strong for you right now, take another sip of beer, discuss a new shot tactic with your caddie, laugh at the joke he had plenty of time to tell you, finish off that beer, realize the wind just calmed a bit, re-address the ball and....finally....drive that sucker down the fairway just as straight as an arrow! Now that takes athletic prowess, let me tell you! And that shot only took you two minutes to complete!

Now, let's say that the rules of golf say it's okay for your human opponents to stand in your way, so you have to use your club on them and rush like crazy to get off your shot before they use their clubs on you. Then, you have to run down and take your next stroke before the guys catch you. Now, that would make golf a sport...not just a game.

You see where I'm coming from, T_R? Same reason why bowling's not a sport, or poker, for that matter. If it's you against 10 pins, or you against a small hole about 400 yards from you....you're still not taking on your human opponents directly.

And stop all that "hatin' ", jeez!! All those negative feelings are gonna give you a heart attack! Go out and play a leisurely round of golf...it'll make you feel better!

No hate here. Just trying to get you to understand that there is no single definition of what is a sport that everyone will agree to. Since you don't know that the PGA has time limits on shots, and taking your time is in no way a sure bet to hit the ball where you want (and straight isn't always the best way to hit the ball), we can safely assume you have no basis or standing to judge what is and isn't a sport. Like i said, there are far more people who agree that golf and racing are sports than there are that don't. So, like it or not, you lose.

Well, let's just agree to disagree about whether knocking a ball into a hole with no human intervention is actually a sport or not. I happen to think that if it doesn't improve your cardiovascular system to play it, yet it does allow you to swill beer between shots, it ain't a sport. But, hey....that's just my view. And, I'll be willing to bet I'm in the majority of people who agree with me. I've even had a person who plays golf respond on here that says even he agrees that golf isn't a sport!

Now, on to auto racing (yeeeehawwww!!!). Tell me something, T_R. what is the appeal of auto racing? I really wanna know. I have co-workers and family members who are crazy about watching cars go round and round.....and round....and round....and, well, you get the idea. Is it the wrecks that's exciting to watch? If that's the appeal, then that's kinda creepy! Is it seeing your favorite driver run people off the track into the wall, because they can't beat them any other way (like Dale Earnhardt was famous for doing)? If that's so, then you may also enjoy Demolition Derby. Again, it's the car that's doing all the work. And, if you have a pit crew that's fast and does their job right, I think they are every bit as responsible for a driver's success as the driver is, but they don't get any of the respect or rewards that the drivers get. I just don't get the appeal of NASCAR or Indy Car racing. I can just barely stand watching NHRA, because the races last like 5 seconds. But, 2 or 3 hours of watching cars going around in circles??? I live about two miles from one of the short tracks on the NASCAR circuit, and Lord have mercy, you'd think we were having a KKK rally, with all the campers clogging up the parking areas for like a week before the race is run, and all the Confederate flags flying and Pabst Blue Ribbon cans strewn all over the place!! And, I have to laugh at these poor souls who have paid good money to drive here to see a race that you can see on the television in the comfort of your own home for FREE!!! Heck, with today's wide-screen HDTV with 5.1 surround sound, you can watch cars going round and round on your couch and it looks and feels like you're right there in the middle of the track!

I don't know, I just don't get it! Maybe you can help me understand, since you're so wise and I'm just a dumbass jock. Enlighten me, oh wise one!

I quote, "I happen to think that if it doesn't improve your cardiovascular system to play it, yet it does allow you to swill beer between shots, it ain't a sport"

You said that, not me. Which means that, according to you, baseball is not a sport. After all, most of the time the participants are sitting/standing doing nothing. The only ones working up a sweat are the pitcher and catcher. But i disagree with that because baseball IS a sport.

And, again by your definition, racing is at the top of the list as a sport. To be succesful requires excellent eye/hand coordination, reflexes far above average, physical stamina to take the forces placed on your body, etc. But, since you most likely have never particpated in a real auto race and have no idea what goes on, it would be hopeless to try to explain the attraction to you. Much the same as it woulkd be hopeless for you to explain the attraction of poker (arguably the most boring activity ever) to me. Hell, I think basketball is boring to watch and even worse to play, yet I don't claim it isn't a sport.

This is fun! Isn't this fun, T_R??

Let's see....you say that by my definition, auto racing is at the top of the list of "sports". Uhhhh...yeah!! Dude, excellent hand/eye coordination? That's what video gamers have in abundance, but most of them couldn't run around the block without wheezing. Same goes for reflexes....gamers have that. Stamina to withstand forces on the body? Astronauts and fighter pilots have to endure forces FAR beyond those of a car going around in circles at 150+ mph, and they aren't considered athletes.

Like I said in an earlier response, just because you can endure a little heat or a g-force or two doesn't make you an athlete. You have to have the ability to excel at your sport while expending energy that only MOVEMENT will cause you to use up. There's absolutely NO aerobic exercise being performed while sitting on your a** in a car for hours on end....NONE!!

I will agree with you that, as sports go, baseball is close to being a non-sport, because you're right that most of the time, you're just standing there picking your nose, waiting for the ball to be hit in your direction. But, even in baseball, there is even the smallest amount of running, throwing, catching and other MOVEMENT of the body. In auto racing, the only movement of the body is the arms and that's in a VERY limited amount.

Now, I much prefer playing basketball to watching it (kinda boring to watch, like you say), but let me tell you something...there's NO WAY any of those NASCAR drivers can play even 15 minutes of full court 5-on-5 without gasping for air. Yet, put Kobe Bryant behind the wheel of a stock car and I'll be willing to bet he can last the whole race (unless, of course, the spirit of Dale Earnhardt comes back and runs Kobe into the wall).

Tag...you're it!

Vid gamers do better with good eye-hand coordination and reflexes. But in a REAL race car an ATHLETE needs to have these as well as physical and mental endurance all at the same time. Excellent cardiovascular fitness is a must in this sport. So, unless you are changing your definition again, you are, in fact, calling it a sport. Sure, you can put KB behind the wheel, or any other ball player for tha matter, and i am sure they will have the physical endurance to make it to the end, but I am 100% positive they will be many, many, many laps down IF they don't lose concentration and crash first. On the other hand, google the name "Dale Blaney". While learning about him keep in mind that he is not the only professional driver who excels in other sports. Everyone can tell from your posts that you have never, EVER, sat in a real race car and taken it around a track for a few laps. If you had you wouldn't be trying to say it isn't any different than driving in rush hour traffic. Now, you want to try to come up with another definition of what a sport is that includes all of your beloved stick-and-ball sports but excludes racing and golf? Why don't you just get over your bigoted attitude and accept them as being different types of sports instead of just other versions of the same old boring hit/throw/toss the ball activities.

Okay...this is getting more than a little boring, just rehashing our old arguments over and over again. Jeez, I haven't been this bored since the last time I watched a NASCAR race!

I can tell you won't be disuaded from your view and neither will I, and we both understand each other's viewpoint. What I'd like to do next is prove to both of us whether or not your theory is true that most people think auto racing or golf is considered a sport, in their opinion. I think maybe this weekend sometime, I'll start a seed asking people what their views are on that subject. I'd be interested to know...but I'm afraid what's going to happen is that even when shown you are wrong in that opinion, that you'll end up saying the majority of views on this subject are wrong. In fact, if I end up eating crow on this issue, and most people respond in your favor, I'll admit I am in the minority and may even bow to your superior intellect and humbly beg for your forgiveness...:^)

And hey, talk about Plax... I hear he's got phenominal aim...

LOL!

Hobby huh? I have news for you couch potato. Unless you're getting paid for performing a sport, they are ALL HOBBIES. I'll tell you the same thing. Go out and play 18 carrying a bag full of clubs and tell me the next day that it's not a sport. And you didn't answer my statement that said a bunch of professional athletes have said hitting a golf ball is the hardest thing they've ever attempted.

Who are these so called pro athletes you keep refering to? You don't even know the difference between a sport or a hobby, so how would you be able to know what an athlete was?

You didn't answer my question about if you were cut from the football team when only 12 of you tried out?

I didn't say Shaq was always overrated....in his prime, he was as formidable opponent as any on the court...what I think the question was asking is who are currently the most overrated athletes. I think Shaq is years past his prime, yet he's still getting the big bucks and it's still frontpage news when there's even a possibility that he'll be traded to the Cavs.

To tell you the truth, I hope Shaq still has game enough to help Cleveland win the championship next season....he'd better have game, since it appears Cleveland is trading their entire bench for him!

I have to agree that golf is not a sport. I golf about once a year with my company for the last six years. My average score (I just did the math) 101.6 on three different courses in our area. I guess I'm just a natural, huh? What I'm getting at is that these bone-head "pro athletes" that keep getting referred to are probably making the game (it's just a game) harder than it really is to play, trying too hard to be like Tiger. I sit behind a computer 8 hours a day, with very little exercise, and I have no problem walking 18 holes once a year - I must be a great athlete then, huh?

One other point of argument from Tribe Rules who mockingly stated that unless the participants wear a jock strap, it's not a sport. Then I guess there are no female athletes - which is an absurd notion.

Of this list, I would have to agree that Danica is the most overrated - what has she done for the sport? Not much... The other four are past their prime, but have profoundly influenced their sport and do not deserve to be mentioned as over-rated. In Favre's defense, these last few years should not ruin his stellar career. No, he's no Montana or Marino, but his pure stats exceed those two NFL greats and he played longer than each (Iron Man). TO is a bad influence, but he is one of the most athleticaaly gifted athletes of his generation.

My personal vote for the duo of overrated "athletes" would have to be the Manning boys. Each of their Super Bowl wins were flukes, and had very little to do with them and what they did on the field. I remember watching pre-game for XLI and seeing that the Pats were too tight going into the game; they couldn't shake the pressure of a perfect season and so many fans wanting them to fail. Colts vs Bears was probably the absolutely worst SB I have ever watched; the team that hoisted the Lombardi Trophy was mosre a survivor of ugliness than it was of excellence in their sport.

Sorry Archie, your boys just ain't all that..!

Oooo....I don't know, aad135....I'm a Colts fan and one of Payton's biggest fans! But, since the quarterback position probably is the least physically demanding of all the football positions, I can see why one might think he's an overrated athlete. But, you have to possess a keen eye, quick reflexes, a mind that can analyze the coverage on the spur of the moment, a deft touch to lob a soft 5-yarder over a charging linebacker, yet have the ability to heave a bomb 50 yards to a streaking wide receiver along the sidelines and hit him in his stride.

One thing's for damn sure....if he decides to go into coaching, he'd be one helluva great one!

Oooo....good one! I forgot about her. Definitely overrated.

forgot to mention yao ming

Nothing "sporting" about outsmarting a dumb-ass animal and stabbing the damn thing in the base of the neck! Bullfighting is as much a sport as hunting or fishing.

Now, give the animals guns and swords and teach 'em how to use them....then I might consider hunting, fishing and bullfighting as sports. =^)

Only woman racing against men?? Are you ignorant or just plain stupid? There are a lot of women racing in many series, too many to list here.

Best drivers in the world? Uhh, I'm afraid not. She is in the IRL. All you have to do is look at the lack of success they have when moving to F1 or NASCAR. IRL does have the most marketable drivers, though. That is why Danica got her ride in the first place. The world is full of much more talented drivers than her who will never get a chance to race where she is.

Face it. She is just a marketing gimmick and nothing more.

Ever hear of Ashley Force? Ana Beatriz? Both of them compete against "the guys" and have had much more success than Danica. Danica is an average driver in a great car. Indianapolis Speedway suits her driving style better than any other track they run on and her results there show that. At no other track does she have that much consistent success. Check her stats through her career. She never won a race...NOT ONE....after she left karts until she won in Japan last year. She had fewer career wins than any other driver that has ever raced in the IRL when she got her ride. Is she without talent? Nope. But she is very much overrated. The world is full of far better drivers.

And yes, I have heard of Tony Stewart. I raced against him in sprint cars and consider him to be the most talented driver in any type of race car since AJ. Nobody else has been as quick and able to adapt to different types of cars and tracks. Montoya is a fine talent, but he grew up relying on the car too much and stock cars are not nearly as forgiving as open wheel cars. Same goes for Hornish.